Did anyone else get scared....

---

Posted by ant n tilde

I was talking about this on LIF too. With the mortgage issue. I feel like we ( as in a population of people who post on message boards) are MORE likely to do research on our own and figure out the best way to go about financing a home. BUT the older generations TRUSTED teh people they went to! My dad worked in a bank for over thirty years and he dressed in a suit every day and went to work and people TRUSTED him. It was a different business. He wanted to help the people in teh community and he even learned to speak Spanish ( in addition to English ) to help as many people as possible. Then after THIRTY years they told him he had to sell x amount of insurance policies and he got LAID off bc he would honestly tell people 'this isnt the right plan for you' or 'you should get the cheaper option'

So, my point is that when my dad went for his second mortgage he TRUSTED who gave it to him. Why would someone give you a loan that you cant pay back? THANK GOD that my cousin's husband refinanced for him bc if not - we would not have a house to live in at the moment.

Trust me, I am ALL FOR personal responsibility but what about a MORAL and SOCIAL responsibility for the industry as a WHOLE???!

---

good point.

But i also blame our generation. Everything is about bigger and better and having to be one up of everyone else. If their friends are buying big houses then OMG they have to buy one too. And although its just 2 ppl they need the 5 br home right now and yes its out of their budget but 'OMG ITS SO NICE I HAVE TO HAVE IT' this is the mentality of our generation unfortunately. You know how many idiots i know who leased expensive cars that were so expensive monthly, meanwhile all they could do is drive around bc they couldnt afford to do anything else hahahaha. Dont get me wrong, if you have it then go for it. If i have the money then i'll spend on what i want. But also when i need to i can sacrifice alot and have for the past 2 years. I know those are things i dont NEED like others claim. If i am living comfortably and want to do it for myself just bc then its fine, but otherwise we have all been brainwashed to think we NEED to have certain things. Everybody wants to be better than the next person, and have something better than everybody else. Everybody has a greedy mentality

---

Posted by Songstress

---

Posted by ant n tilde


Trust me, I am ALL FOR personal responsibility but what about a MORAL and SOCIAL responsibility for the industry as a WHOLE???!

---

Thats exactly it. And thats what Suze Orman said. They stopped caring about the people. And fooled them into thinking they could afford it and thats just moral injustice. They conned these poor people who just want to live the American Dream. And yes it is up to a person to be responsible enough to know they cant afford it but thats WHY we have these companies. To advise people and speak the truth. But it all came down to money and money once again prevailed, and now it biting them and everyone else in the ***.

---

It is not a great analogy BUT its like when you call a plumber - do you learn how to fix your sink first? No, you trust him to come fix your sink.

Yes, we should all be informed. DH and I WILL be informed. But Bob and Sally Jones are going to TRUST the PROFESSIONAL to help them NOT hurt them.

---

Posted by ant n tilde

---

Posted by Espo22

---

Posted by Future Mulligan

i dont understand how a person or a couple that for example made 3K a month thought that they can afford a 3K mortgage or even a $2,500.00 mortgage - i just dont understand it - to me, there is no explanation, you can't say that these people didnt know they weren't going to be able to afford - if they truly didnt realize it, then they are idiots and i dont want to sound mean but are you that financially irresponsible that you dont even know what you can afford?....

i remember in 2005 my FSIL and her husband needed a pre approval letter for when they started house hunting - they were pre-approved for a million dollars - and there was no way they could afford a million dollar home, it was like ridiculous what they got pre-approved for - but they arent idiots, they knew that just because they had a preapproval letter didnt mean they should look at or could afford million dollar homes KWIM?

i dont get it....yes the mortgage brokers were f'd up and yes they took advantage of people BUT shame on the homeowners for not doing their own homework and for being so naive and irresponsible...

this whole thing bothers me, i hate talking about it, i just hope that we dont have to jump through hoops now even though we have impeccable credit just to get a mortgage because of other peoples mistakes and money mismanagement

---

thats why it gets me so mad. Yes the mortgage brokers are very wrong too but you also need to take responsibility for your own actions and have to realize that of course real estate agents and mortgage brokers are gonna tell you what you want to hear. And no matter what they say, if you make $3k a month and mortgage is $3k a month or 2500 like you said, then you dont need anyone to tell you that you cant afford it. Ive heard how some ppl talk and they come up with all these ideas in their heads. Oh its ok we'll just sacrifice and make it somehow, and wont spend any money. But if your monthly income is basically your mortgage then its not possible, you still have other obligations. I hate to say it too but if i bought a place and my mortgage was basically what i made a month and then i couldn't pay it, then i would have nobody to blame but myself.

Some of the situations are different and maybe one person lost a job so now they had to pay their mortgage with one income so it depends on the situation. Sometimes things happen that can change your whole financial situation.

But yeah many times i get so annoyed now for the process i have to go through and say 'freaking ppl who bought homes they couldn't afford' bc sorry to say, this was mostly the case. A few are the exception such as scenarios i said above, but i think the majority is that ppl got in way over their heads. Then after they buy expensive cars with high payments monthly again not thinking and this cycle just continues.

---

I wonder WHAT the statistics are though. Like what percentage of foreclosures were just based on financial ignorance and what percentage are based on some life changing events such as losing a job, getting sick and stuff like that you know?

---

i also wonder about this. I wonder if there are statistics that show this. Find out Tilde hahaha

---

Posted by Espo22


But yeah many times i get so annoyed now for the process i have to go through and say 'freaking ppl who bought homes they couldn't afford' bc sorry to say, this was mostly the case. A few are the exception such as scenarios i said above, but i think the majority is that ppl got in way over their heads. Then after they buy expensive cars with high payments monthly again not thinking and this cycle just continues.

---

I totally agree with you. It ***** for the people who are responsible and decided HELL NO I cant afford this. BUT It sad that some people just want to live the American Dream and be able to take advantage of what is offered and maybe come closer and closer to living it. Thats where the companies should do THEIR jobs. People are people and will make mistakes and get caught up in things they shouldnt but thats why we have these financial companies. Or at least thats what we thought they were there for. They took advantage of people and lets face it there are a lot of naive people in this world who are vulnerable. Not excusing them, just saying these companies are full of snakes and theyre also to blame for the crap were in.

---

Posted by ant n tilde

---

Posted by Songstress

---

Posted by ant n tilde


Trust me, I am ALL FOR personal responsibility but what about a MORAL and SOCIAL responsibility for the industry as a WHOLE???!

---

Thats exactly it. And thats what Suze Orman said. They stopped caring about the people. And fooled them into thinking they could afford it and thats just moral injustice. They conned these poor people who just want to live the American Dream. And yes it is up to a person to be responsible enough to know they cant afford it but thats WHY we have these companies. To advise people and speak the truth. But it all came down to money and money once again prevailed, and now it biting them and everyone else in the ***.

---

It is not a great analogy BUT its like when you call a plumber - do you learn how to fix your sink first? No, you trust him to come fix your sink.

Yes, we should all be informed. DH and I WILL be informed. But Bob and Sally Jones are going to TRUST the PROFESSIONAL to help them NOT hurt them.

---

i guess its good that i dont trust ppl i mean im sorry to say but i dont trust the corporate world. i dont trust the real estate agent(not all so anyone who is dont get offended lol) i dont trust the mortgage broker, or anyone whom i know will make money off of me based on my decisions. If i know that you are going to profit bc of me, then i know that you are going to say whatever you want me to hear to get your profit from me.

I am on my 3rd mortgage broker. The others said F U bc i didnt like their suggestions and didnt agree with what they were saying. We had one guy who tried to charge us insane closing fees. My dad said right then and there H E L L NO and he went off, he threw the papers at them. He knows about this luckily and oh yeah how funny that they come back and took $5k off he saw things on there that didnt have to be. You always have to look out for yourself

I think the whole idea of it's better to buy then rent made people want to buy because otherwise they'd be wasting money on rent. So complanies came up with these programs to make home buying more affordable. I think these programs could have been good tools for people but unfortunately they were used incorrectly. Instead of buying what you could afford with the extra help, I guess people felt they could afford more, which probably is what inflated the housing prices so much in the first place. Pair that with the fact that sales people are trying ot make a living and make sales... Disaster.

I think the blame cannot be placed on any one entity. The government should have stepped in before things became to much to handle.

The companies should have been more responsible, they shouldn't be giving out loans they know people will not be able to afford. And

People should be more informed and responsible with there money. No one is looking out for you but you. And I hope everyone has learned that. You need to research research and research before making such a large purchase.

There's so much good honest information out there to help the everyday people make informed financial decisions. But you gotta look for it.

And for any advice you recieve anywhere, If it seems too good to be true, it probably is.

---

Posted by Espo22

---

Posted by Future Mulligan

i dont understand how a person or a couple that for example made 3K a month thought that they can afford a 3K mortgage or even a $2,500.00 mortgage - i just dont understand it - to me, there is no explanation, you can't say that these people didnt know they weren't going to be able to afford - if they truly didnt realize it, then they are idiots and i dont want to sound mean but are you that financially irresponsible that you dont even know what you can afford?....

i remember in 2005 my FSIL and her husband needed a pre approval letter for when they started house hunting - they were pre-approved for a million dollars - and there was no way they could afford a million dollar home, it was like ridiculous what they got pre-approved for - but they arent idiots, they knew that just because they had a preapproval letter didnt mean they should look at or could afford million dollar homes KWIM?

i dont get it....yes the mortgage brokers were f'd up and yes they took advantage of people BUT shame on the homeowners for not doing their own homework and for being so naive and irresponsible...

this whole thing bothers me, i hate talking about it, i just hope that we dont have to jump through hoops now even though we have impeccable credit just to get a mortgage because of other peoples mistakes and money mismanagement

---

thats why it gets me so mad. Yes the mortgage brokers are very wrong too but you also need to take responsibility for your own actions and have to realize that of course real estate agents and mortgage brokers are gonna tell you what you want to hear. And no matter what they say, if you make $3k a month and mortgage is $3k a month or 2500 like you said, then you dont need anyone to tell you that you cant afford it. Ive heard how some ppl talk and they come up with all these ideas in their heads. Oh its ok we'll just sacrifice and make it somehow, and wont spend any money. But if your monthly income is basically your mortgage then its not possible, you still have other obligations. I hate to say it too but if i bought a place and my mortgage was basically what i made a month and then i couldn't pay it, then i would have nobody to blame but myself.

Some of the situations are different and maybe one person lost a job so now they had to pay their mortgage with one income so it depends on the situation. Sometimes things happen that can change your whole financial situation.

But yeah many times i get so annoyed now for the process i have to go through and say 'freaking ppl who bought homes they couldn't afford' bc sorry to say, this was mostly the case. A few are the exception such as scenarios i said above, but i think the majority is that ppl got in way over their heads. Then after they buy expensive cars with high payments monthly again not thinking and this cycle just continues.

---

exactly - this crisis doesnt have to do with the people who lost jobs and things of that nature - this is because people bought homes (when the real estate market was totally INFLATED), got a loan that they should have known they couldnt afford and guess what happened - they couldnt make their payments - what a surprise!

i think that people wanted to believe that they could afford it - and when you have someone in your ear telling you that you can you want to believe that too - but i know a handful of people who messed up, that cant afford their bills - and people who cant afford their mortgage almost always have maxed out credit cards too - at least people i know and thats even more debt....

i dont know, maybe because of what ive seen with my own eyes i am more aware, and my FH is aware too - we've even seen it in our families....thats why we have been waiting to get a house - we saw people who def make less money than us getting houses and im glad we didnt do it too....then we'd be foreclosing, or in credit card debt right now....no thanks! ill rent

and denise you are right - about people one upping - people do it with cars, with houses, WITH WEDDINGS

thats the mentality - i think especially in and around NYC....its annoying, i have a theory - i think that because a lot of our parents were our age in the 80's - people were making money, and i think that influenced people our parents ages - like i see how our families are - who has what, who has bigger house than who, who has a nicer yard, who makes more money, who has the biggest car, who's kid goes to the best private school, blah, blah - and i think that got passed down to their kids, people our age now....does that make sense?

---

Posted by Future Mulligan

and denise you are right - about people one upping - people do it with cars, with houses, WITH WEDDINGS

thats the mentality - i think especially in and around NYC....its annoying, i have a theory - i think that because a lot of our parents were our age in the 80's - people were making money, and i think that influenced people our parents ages - like i see how our families are - who has what, who has bigger house than who, who has a nicer yard, who makes more money, who has the biggest car, who's kid goes to the best private school, blah, blah - and i think that got passed down to their kids, people our age now....does that make sense?

---

its true, i mean with the wedding i cant talk bc i did want to go big but i didnt take out loans and i didnt put anything on CC, i dont even have cc's. But at the same time i sacrificed alot, forget shopping or doing anything for myself during those 2 years. I calculated ahead of time, how much of my paycheck i have to contribute every 2 weeks towards the wedding, so i knew EXACTLY how much i could spend from my paycheck. Once i spent that then thats it, i couldnt spend anymore bc i had to save a certain amount every 2 weeks.

Dont get me wrong, i want a nice house in the future. But right now with just dh and i, i just want an apt. Nothing wrong with getting a house. But for now this is good for me, i dont care how many of our friends get houses, i dont feel pressured to get one.

it has passed down, i do agree. The 80's started with this and its only gotten worse.

---

Posted by Espo22

---

Posted by Future Mulligan

and denise you are right - about people one upping - people do it with cars, with houses, WITH WEDDINGS

thats the mentality - i think especially in and around NYC....its annoying, i have a theory - i think that because a lot of our parents were our age in the 80's - people were making money, and i think that influenced people our parents ages - like i see how our families are - who has what, who has bigger house than who, who has a nicer yard, who makes more money, who has the biggest car, who's kid goes to the best private school, blah, blah - and i think that got passed down to their kids, people our age now....does that make sense?

---

its true, i mean with the wedding i cant talk bc i did want to go big but i didnt take out loans and i didnt put anything on CC, i dont even have cc's. But at the same time i sacrificed alot, forget shopping or doing anything for myself during those 2 years. I calculated ahead of time, how much of my paycheck i have to contribute every 2 weeks towards the wedding, so i knew EXACTLY how much i could spend from my paycheck. Once i spent that then thats it, i couldnt spend anymore bc i had to save a certain amount every 2 weeks.

Dont get me wrong, i want a nice house in the future. But right now with just dh and i, i just want an apt. Nothing wrong with getting a house. But for now this is good for me, i dont care how many of our friends get houses, i dont feel pressured to get one.

it has passed down, i do agree. The 80's started with this and its only gotten worse.

---

yeah - i am guilty with the wedding too - my wedding isnt half as big as yours - a lot less people but we did get a little crazy with some of our vendors, and i have 2 dresses, and there are things that i really wanted to do that for us was going all out BUT like you said everything so far has been paid cash and im proud of that - we havent taken on anything with the wedding that we cant handle....at times its still stressful, especially with what is going on in the world right now but even with no income we could finishing paying it off out of our bank account - so we played it smart and we always do and try to...thats why i get aggravated at people who have clear heads and spend spend spend - it annoys me because i am only 23 years old, ive been on my own since 19 and i havent messed up but people twice my age are up to their ears in debt - it just bothers me, and stupid people bother me

im sorry if i am offending anyone, im PMSing hardcore today - i dont mean anything bad, and i dont like calling people stupid, and not everyone is stupid, its just me venting

The problem wasn't with the over inflation of the real estate market (though it was a factor), it was adjustable rate mortgages. These people MIGHT have been able to afford their payments when the interest rates were low, but once they went up the payments ballooned and they could no longer afford it.

Consider this...The rate of foreclosures for sub prime adjustable rate mortgages in 2Q was 6.63%. The rate for fixed rate you ask??? 0.34%

The fraud was not only committed by the lenders, but ALOT of the borrowers are to blame. I remember growing up and some of my friend's families didn't OWN homes. They didn't own them, because they couldn't afford them. I remember when I was getting my mortgage, my friend that did mine--when I called her and asked what she was doing one day, she said 'doing a mortgage for the cashier at burger king.' I'm not going to speculate on what he makes, but I mean, NOT IN A POSITION TO OWN A HOME!!!!!!! The mortgage brokers are partially to blame, but its really the banks faults for not making sure that people make enough money to have a buffer in case something happens.

I'm in a co-op and you can bet that they made sure I had enough money in the bank if I lost my job for a YEAR. The management company operates as a investment property, theres no reason the BANKS shouldn't.

*steps off soapbox*

It's not JUST 1 thing. Yes, people are to blame because they wanted the bigger and better homes and cars and figured they could just spend spend on credit cards and just make the minimum.

But, alot of people were put into adjustible rate mortgages. (ha ha Kitty, we posted this at the same time. We think alike!!!)

let's face it, alot of people are not intelligent and they don't read the fine print. They want the big house and a broker and real estate tell them, 'I know a way we can make this happen'. That they don't tell them is 'in 5 years your payment will double and you might get into trouble'

So, it's a combination of alot of things. American's greed for bigger and better is the core of the problem. But shady business deals and practices is what allowed it to get out of hand.

FH worked in a Mortgage Broker firm. he did compliance. He would see things on documents - such as stated income for a hairdresser being $250,000/yr - and the banks would accept it. So, people who didn't actually make enough money were allowed to just state an estimated income, no background checking or anything.

2 years ago I told him I wanted to buy something. He said 'wait 2 years. Right now there are alot of people in mortgages that are going to adjust. they will not be able to afford the house anymore and they will have to forclose They will not be able to refinance or sell because housing values went down.' Unfortunately he was right.

I don't care if the government's plans are or aren't socialism. All I can say is that government's deregulation of a lot of things in attempts to fuel free business enterprises has been a colossal failure. All that happened was the little guy got screwed. So, I'm all for the government stepping in and making laws to prevent this from happening again. I just wish they would have stepped in 2 years ago when the alarm bells were going off. Now, its too late and this bail-out plan will only bring us further into ruin.

Ps - I just want to say you are all very intelligent ladies and you totally ROCK in this thread. It's nice to talk about something other than weddings every once in a while!

---

Posted by Future Mulligan

---

Posted by Espo22

---

Posted by Future Mulligan

and denise you are right - about people one upping - people do it with cars, with houses, WITH WEDDINGS

thats the mentality - i think especially in and around NYC....its annoying, i have a theory - i think that because a lot of our parents were our age in the 80's - people were making money, and i think that influenced people our parents ages - like i see how our families are - who has what, who has bigger house than who, who has a nicer yard, who makes more money, who has the biggest car, who's kid goes to the best private school, blah, blah - and i think that got passed down to their kids, people our age now....does that make sense?

---

its true, i mean with the wedding i cant talk bc i did want to go big but i didnt take out loans and i didnt put anything on CC, i dont even have cc's. But at the same time i sacrificed alot, forget shopping or doing anything for myself during those 2 years. I calculated ahead of time, how much of my paycheck i have to contribute every 2 weeks towards the wedding, so i knew EXACTLY how much i could spend from my paycheck. Once i spent that then thats it, i couldnt spend anymore bc i had to save a certain amount every 2 weeks.

Dont get me wrong, i want a nice house in the future. But right now with just dh and i, i just want an apt. Nothing wrong with getting a house. But for now this is good for me, i dont care how many of our friends get houses, i dont feel pressured to get one.

it has passed down, i do agree. The 80's started with this and its only gotten worse.

---

yeah - i am guilty with the wedding too - my wedding isnt half as big as yours - a lot less people but we did get a little crazy with some of our vendors, and i have 2 dresses, and there are things that i really wanted to do that for us was going all out BUT like you said everything so far has been paid cash and im proud of that - we havent taken on anything with the wedding that we cant handle....at times its still stressful, especially with what is going on in the world right now but even with no income we could finishing paying it off out of our bank account - so we played it smart and we always do and try to...thats why i get aggravated at people who have clear heads and spend spend spend - it annoys me because i am only 23 years old, ive been on my own since 19 and i havent messed up but people twice my age are up to their ears in debt - it just bothers me, and stupid people bother me

im sorry if i am offending anyone, im PMSing hardcore today - i dont mean anything bad, and i dont like calling people stupid, and not everyone is stupid, its just me venting

---

trust me its a good thing you have less ppl lol. But its good you paid cash, you dont have to worry about being in debt after the wedding. What you wanted its paid for and thats it, you wont owe later. I say to each their own, i mean i dont care if someone does a big or small wedding. And yes some ppl want a big wedding and nothing wrong with it, if someone doesnt then ok fine just continue with your own plans and not care what others do. Not like i ever sit there and say 'why are you having a small wedding' so if you want to do things a certain way and are doing it the right way then go for it.

---

Posted by KittyGags

The problem wasn't with the over inflation of the real estate market (though it was a factor), it was adjustable rate mortgages. These people MIGHT have been able to afford their payments when the interest rates were low, but once they went up the payments ballooned and they could no longer afford it.

Consider this...The rate of foreclosures for sub prime adjustable rate mortgages in 2Q was 6.63%. The rate for fixed rate you ask??? 0.34%

The fraud was not only committed by the lenders, but ALOT of the borrowers are to blame. I remember growing up and some of my friend's families didn't OWN homes. They didn't own them, because they couldn't afford them. I remember when I was getting my mortgage, my friend that did mine--when I called her and asked what she was doing one day, she said 'doing a mortgage for the cashier at burger king.' I'm not going to speculate on what he makes, but I mean, NOT IN A POSITION TO OWN A HOME!!!!!!! The mortgage brokers are partially to blame, but its really the banks faults for not making sure that people make enough money to have a buffer in case something happens.

I'm in a co-op and you can bet that they made sure I had enough money in the bank if I lost my job for a YEAR. The management company operates as a investment property, theres no reason the BANKS shouldn't.

*steps off soapbox*

---

so very true. I live in a co-op too and they really go over all this carefully. They look at your credit history, and look at how much you make but on top of that they also look at your debt to income ratio.

---

Posted by Future Mulligan
exactly - this crisis doesnt have to do with the people who lost jobs and things of that nature - this is because people bought homes (when the real estate market was totally INFLATED), got a loan that they should have known they couldnt afford and guess what happened - they couldnt make their payments - what a surprise!

i think that people wanted to believe that they could afford it - and when you have someone in your ear telling you that you can you want to believe that too

---

I can't entirely agree with that. I think a lot of people here bought more home than they could afford, because of a distorted view of what normal is. In the country at large, I think a lot of the crisis has to do with rising COL and employment cuts. We're in an unusual market - definitely not the average.

As for people in your ear telling you what you can afford, as a pp said, that is their job. That's exactly what you go to them for. It is the banking industry's role to say 'We're not taking a $300k risk on you because you can't afford that. You can afford $200k. That's the extent of the risk we're willing to incur.' They did the opposite. It was blatantly poor risk management, by the professionals who are supposed to be managing everyone's risk in portfolios all over the country. It's disgusting, it's irresponsible, and it won't matter where you move to, because we're taking the global econ down with us.

ETA: WooHoo! 4 pages on the economy!!

---

Posted by TheLadyJ

It's not JUST 1 thing. Yes, people are to blame because they wanted the bigger and better homes and cars and figured they could just spend spend on credit cards and just make the minimum.

But, alot of people were put into adjustible rate mortgages. (ha ha Kitty, we posted this at the same time. We think alike!!!)

let's face it, alot of people are not intelligent and they don't read the fine print. They want the big house and a broker and real estate tell them, 'I know a way we can make this happen'. That they don't tell them is 'in 5 years your payment will double and you might get into trouble'

So, it's a combination of alot of things. American's greed for bigger and better is the core of the problem. But shady business deals and practices is what allowed it to get out of hand.

FH worked in a Mortgage Broker firm. he did compliance. He would see things on documents - such as stated income for a hairdresser being $250,000/yr - and the banks would accept it. So, people who didn't actually make enough money were allowed to just state an estimated income, no background checking or anything.

2 years ago I told him I wanted to buy something. He said 'wait 2 years. Right now there are alot of people in mortgages that are going to adjust. they will not be able to afford the house anymore and they will have to forclose They will not be able to refinance or sell because housing values went down.' Unfortunately he was right.

I don't care if the government's plans are or aren't socialism. All I can say is that government's deregulation of a lot of things in attempts to fuel free business enterprises has been a colossal failure. All that happened was the little guy got screwed. So, I'm all for the government stepping in and making laws to prevent this from happening again. I just wish they would have stepped in 2 years ago when the alarm bells were going off. Now, its too late and this bail-out plan will only bring us further into ruin.

---

thats why i said both are to blame. Yes ppl made irresponsible decisions but the mortgage brokers and everyone else were to blame too. I know i wrote that somewhere on here haha. I also mentioned in my first posts how the problem is that shady business was going on and ppl know this but nobody ever stepped in before.

yes that type of mortgage that you mentioned is called a stated mortgage, basically you were able to put down any amount for how much you make and they took your word for it and didnt check. Now of course you wont see that happening

ETA: i just read what else you wrote and yes they should've stepped in before, now its going to be hard to fix all the problems and bc like you said, theres too many people who messed up and alot of ppl are at fault.

And you rock too haha

i think the one thing we can all agree on is that 'WE'RE SCREWED'

dont even get me started with adj rates

---

Posted by Espo22

i think the one thing we can all agree on is that 'WE'RE SCREWED'

---

I'm quoting that for truth.

But I still think this bail-out plan is a bad idea. I can't find anyone who thinks it is a good idea. yet, our government is going ahead with it......