Re: How do you feel about religion in politics?

---

Posted by Bride626

Separation of church and state is important. However, ethics should be a major part of politics and I am fearful of any politician who refuses to inject his sense of ethics...his sense of what is right and wrong....into policy. Policy should always be based on what is ethical. Ethics has been the basis of every legitimate legal code throughout history.

For example, John Kerry...supported by every single textbook on embryology....knows that life begins at conception. He also feels ethically that life is sacred and should be protected. However, he refuses to transpose this sense of ethics into policy. He supports abortion and even refuses to vote for a ban on the barbaric practice of partial birth abortion.

I find this troubling. He turns his back on what he believes is right and it is solely for political purposes. He excuses this hypocrisy by claiming that he is not going to inject his religious beliefs into policy. This is a cop out. It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with ethics.

What if Abraham Lincoln found slavery to be wrong but refused to inject his Judeo-Christian ethic regarding the equality of all man into policy? Ethics is the bedrock of policy and should not be ignored.

I'm sure I am going to get totally flamed for this one!!

---

No flaming, but a 100% difference of opinion. John Kerry BELIEVES that life begins at conception - he doesn't KNOW it. If it were a fact, there would be no debate. That's his belief and apparently that's yours as well, which you are entitled to. I don't necessarily hold that same belief. John Kerry and you are both entitled to your beliefs, but neither one of you has a right to force those beliefs onto me. To do so, under our agreed upon form of government, is ethically WRONG. The pro-choice/pro-life argument has always been based in religion, to say it isn't is completely illogical to me.

Re: How do you feel about religion in politics?

I am not for capital punishment so I don't agree with Bush on that issue. Although, the question of guilt is involved in that instance-- a concept absent in the abortion concept.
Nevertheless, your post does not undermine my pont that Kerry is a hypocrite on his stance on abortion.

Re: How do you feel about religion in politics?

---

Posted by Bride626

I am not for capital punishment so I don't agree with Bush on that issue. Although, the question of guilt is involved in that instance-- a concept absent in the abortion concept.
Nevertheless, your post does not undermine my pont that Kerry is a hypocrite on his stance on abortion.

---

You can call and think that Kerry a hypocrite, but according to your first post Bush is also.

Re: How do you feel about religion in politics?

Kerry the Catholic sees life as beginning at conception. Kerry the Politician sees that the government has no right to impose this belief on other people, be they Catholic or not.

That is not hypocrisy - that is the point of 'separation between church and state'.

Re: How do you feel about religion in politics?

---

Posted by eroxgirl

---

Posted by Bride626

Separation of church and state is important. However, ethics should be a major part of politics and I am fearful of any politician who refuses to inject his sense of ethics...his sense of what is right and wrong....into policy. Policy should always be based on what is ethical. Ethics has been the basis of every legitimate legal code throughout history.

For example, John Kerry...supported by every single textbook on embryology....knows that life begins at conception. He also feels ethically that life is sacred and should be protected. However, he refuses to transpose this sense of ethics into policy. He supports abortion and even refuses to vote for a ban on the barbaric practice of partial birth abortion.

I find this troubling. He turns his back on what he believes is right and it is solely for political purposes. He excuses this hypocrisy by claiming that he is not going to inject his religious beliefs into policy. This is a cop out. It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with ethics.

What if Abraham Lincoln found slavery to be wrong but refused to inject his Judeo-Christian ethic regarding the equality of all man into policy? Ethics is the bedrock of policy and should not be ignored.

I'm sure I am going to get totally flamed for this one!!

---

No flaming, but a 100% difference of opinion. John Kerry BELIEVES that life begins at conception - he doesn't KNOW it. If it were a fact, there would be no debate. That's his belief and apparently that's yours as well, which you are entitled to. I don't necessarily hold that same belief. John Kerry and you are both entitled to your beliefs, but neither one of you has a right to force those beliefs onto me. To do so, under our agreed upon form of government, is ethically WRONG. The pro-choice/pro-life argument has always been based in religion, to say it isn't is completely illogical to me.

---

I am sorry but you are wrong. The life of the new individual human being begins at fertilization (conception). It is significant to state that every human embryologist, world wide, knows this (it is not a belief), and it is so stated in every textbook of human embryology. John Kerry knows this. He just chooses to ignore it. The debate is over how we value life .... NOT when it starts!!

And, we absolutely do have a right to 'force' beliefs onto others. Our law does it all the time. You can't go around killing people...even if you believe someone should be killed. You can't do drugs even if you want to. Our law is the implementation of our ethics .... not our religion.

And TwoBugs...it's not 'Kerry the Catholic' who 'believes' life begins at conception. It's Kerry, a person who understands science, who Knows that life begins at conception.

Heidla...I agree...then Bush is a hypocrite too on the death penalty issue. However, I find it easier to vote for a politician who defends the rights of innocent unborn even if he refuses to defend the right to life of guilty hardened criminals.

Re: How do you feel about religion in politics?

---

Posted by Bride626


And TwoBugs...it's not 'Kerry the Catholic' who 'believes' life begins at conception. It's Kerry, a person who understands science, who Knows that life begins at conception.

---

NO ONE 'knows' that life begins at conception.

Trust me - I am a person who understands science, and there is absolutely NOT a consensus on this in the scientific community.

Whether life begins at conception is a religious issue, NOT a biological issue.

Re: How do you feel about religion in politics?

Actually, it is well known when life begins:

There is no question about when human life begins.

The widely used medical textbook The Developing Human, Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th Edition, Moore, Persaud, Saunders, 1998, states at page 2 that 'The intricate processes by which a baby develops from a single cell are miraculous .... This cell [the zygote] results from the union of an oocyte [egg] and sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being ....' At page 18 this theme is repeated: 'Human development begins at fertilization [emphasis in original] ....'

Dr. Jerome Lejeune, 'Father of Modern Genetics' and discoverer of the cause of Down's Syndrome, stated, 'To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion . . . it is plain experimental evidence.'

Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman, Department of Genetics at Mayo Clinic, stated, 'By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception.'

Men and women of science might often approve of abortion, but that is a judgment about the value of human life, not about the scientific fact that human life exists.

Re: How do you feel about religion in politics?

I think separation is best. I am very spiritual and somewhat religious and yet I still fell that way only because of the vast amount of differences in religion's of the world and I do not think you can determine public policy for the PEOPLE if your thinking religiously as a Christian...

Not to say that I didn't wish that religion or plain spirituality would play a bigger part in the lives of all of us, especially our leaders, I would like to see that. BUT...I'm intelligent enough to know that we are way past a time where religion views could co-exist with political ones...

I think religion can help be important in helping people choose their actions but it should never interfere with making decisions.

Re: How do you feel about religion in politics?

---

Posted by Bride626

Actually, it is well known when life begins:

There is no question about when human life begins.

The widely used medical textbook The Developing Human, Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th Edition, Moore, Persaud, Saunders, 1998, states at page 2 that 'The intricate processes by which a baby develops from a single cell are miraculous .... This cell [the zygote] results from the union of an oocyte [egg] and sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being ....' At page 18 this theme is repeated: 'Human development begins at fertilization [emphasis in original] ....'

Dr. Jerome Lejeune, 'Father of Modern Genetics' and discoverer of the cause of Down's Syndrome, stated, 'To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion . . . it is plain experimental evidence.'

Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman, Department of Genetics at Mayo Clinic, stated, 'By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception.'

Men and women of science might often approve of abortion, but that is a judgment about the value of human life, not about the scientific fact that human life exists.

---

Marymoon, I don’t mean to hijack your thread to discuss science vs. religion. And in fact, I’m very late leaving work already but I just have to respond to a few things really quickly. I can’t let a good debate about science go unanswered!

First, the statement “There is no question about when human life begins” is wholly inaccurate, from a scientific perspective. There is no such thing as a scientific fact. Ask 100 scientists an opinion about a hypothesis or theory and you’ll get 130 answers. Scientists are not ignorant enough to assume anything is “fact” because they respect the conditionals, the outliers, the unknown or unexpected variables, even the seemingly impossible. As with anything else, scientists are not in complete agreement about when life becomes life. As such, one textbook does not represent the teachings of all of medicine.

Interestingly, I traced that statement to a web site that teaches that “Abortion destroys, not affirms, women’s rights”.

As if that wasn’t enough to make these arguments suspect, I then noticed the quote by Dr. Jerome Lejuene, the so-called “Father of Modern Genetics”. Um, who?? Lejuene is not the father of any stage of genetics. He is a scientist who muddles his scientific objectivity by injecting religion into his beliefs. (Hey, it happens. Even scientists aren’t perfect!)

And that, I suspect, is what is happening here. Whether you realize it or not, you have contaminated science with your religious beliefs. If you are truly interested in the scientific basis of fertilization, I suggest you find some more credible and objective sources. I deeply respect your opinion, but I am very uncomfortable with the distortion of science to prove a “fact” that has no basis in biology.

Re: How do you feel about religion in politics?

I think there's a big difference between the death penalty and abortion, and frankly I think legalizing the death penalty is worse.

Why for the simple fact that, abortions are not mandated by the government. If no one wanted abortion (as many anti-abortion people like to say), there would be no abortions, whether it's legal or not. You're not dealing at that point with the morals of the government, but the morals of the people. if you're a person who feels that abortion is agisnt your morals, you don't have to have one! Isn't that great?

The Death penalty is State mandated. The state is actually killing people (with our tax dollars no less). i think that's totally wrong. There's no choice involved, it's state mandated killing, and many, many innocent people get executed every year...BY THE STATE.

We are also the only 'civilised' first , world, industrialized nation that puts CHILDREN to death. yes, Children. Recent court cases have allowed children as young as 16 (maybe 15 now?) to be put to death, when there is scientific evidence that at that age their braisn are not fully formed and they cannot understand what they have done. They can't vote or drink, but they can die. This practice puts us among the ranks of such wonderful nations as singapore and nigeria. Most other 'first world' nations frown on the death penalty altogether and there have been several cases where criminals involved in capital crimes have escaped to Europe, and the governments in Europe have refused to release them to us because they don't believe in the death penalty. I think we should look around at what our supposed peers are doing (europe), instead of being peers with countries like singapore and nigeria.

Re: How do you feel about religion in politics?

---

Posted by TwoBugs

[

And that, I suspect, is what is happening here. Whether you realize it or not, you have contaminated science with your religious beliefs. If you are truly interested in the scientific basis of fertilization, I suggest you find some more credible and objective sources. I deeply respect your opinion, but I am very uncomfortable with the distortion of science to prove a “fact” that has no basis in biology.

---

Well, Friday night happy hour turned into happy hours so i am a bitty drunky drunk~

But, I do have to rebut your accusation that my stance has been 'contaminated' with my 'religious beliefs.' Wjat religious beliefs? I've never been baptized or a member of any organized religsion. Though my hubby is technically 'Catholic', I consider myself agnostic. we got married on a golf course,,,not a church. I've only been in a church 2x's for friends' weddings. So, this comes from my sense of etihcs...not religion.

I don't portend to be a 'scientist'. I'm a lawyer. Heck, I majored in philosophy and always hated science. But the literature I have read convinces me that abortion ends a life.

But, I think there is scientific truth. The earth is round...not flat. Humans breathe oxygen, etc. Can you dispute that an unborn baby has a beating heart 21 days after conception? Seriously, I would be interested in reading something that says otherwise...though i haven't seen it.

Abortion is a touchy subject and, quite honestly, a subject which reasonable people can differ. But, I don't think that it is just the destruction of tissue. It does stop a beating heart. And that is why I am against it.

BTW, Marymoon...since you dislike the fact that tax $$ pay for the death penalty since you ethically oppose the practice, then logically you should be against the public funding of stem cell research?? People are morally opposed to that... why should their hard earned tax $$ go to that?

Re: How do you feel about religion in politics?

Wow, let's totally hijakc, and turn abortion vs death penalty into death penalty vs. stem cell research completely missing the point about government sanctioned killing vs. voluntary abortions, shall we?

For the record...I believe abortion is immoral. I think there is grey area, but I think late term abortions should absolutely be outlawed, and once they find a way to make it constitutional, I hope that bill gets passed, because that, like the death penalty is completely barbaric and has no place in 'civilised' society. I just don't think it should be allowed. You're pulling out what could be a viable fetus (even if you believe life does not begin at coneption, surely if the fetus cna be taken out at that point and live, then there is life there).

While I would never EVER have an abortion, I'm not sure I can support taking away someone else's right to do so. When I was younger I was totally 'pro life', and that was black and white to me... But I thought about what it feels like to have an unplanned pregnancy and feel like a prisoner in your own body. I really don't know which way to go on this. A main reason I sway to the side of pro choice is that most of the pro choice politicians in this world also want to keep women from birth control and sex education, and that's a dangerous thing.

The countries in whch abortion is illegal tend to have the most abortions are the ones where it is illegal. if you want fewer abortions don't illegalize it (because people DO want it. I'm sick of pro life people saying 'the people don't want abortions'. if they didn't, there wouldn't BE abortions, because unlike the death penalty, abortions are NOT state mandated).If you want fewer abortions EDUCATE people about their bodies and how to protect themselves. 'Abstinence only' doens't work for everyone. ALso, take away the stigma about unwed mothers. Unwed mothers go through such crap and so much humiliation in this society. it's a pretty good argument to get an abortion just because you're afraid of how people will treat you as an unwed pregnant woman. A girl I know got FIRED from her job for getting pg before marriage (she was a teacher at a catholic school). Well, you know what? I think that's a pretty good argument FOR having an abortion, if keeping your baby is going to make you lose your job. Make it easier financially, emotionally and societally for women to get educated in birth control, and to decide to KEEP their babies and there will be fewer abortions. Under the Clinton administratioj, the abortion rate dropped significantly. Why? Well for one, the economy was doing well. Historically, there are more abortions under Republican administrations because times tend to be harder for poor people, who are usually the people having abortions.

The only way to lower the abortion rate is to make it easier for a woman to 1) not get pregnant in the first place if she doens't want to be and 2)carry her baby to term without undue financial hardhip and social stigma.


The reason i compare the death penalty with abortion is that usually a candidate is for abortion and agsint the death penalty, ro for the death penalty and against abortion. So if I'm going to vote to abolish one or the other, I say the death penalty, because it's state sanctioned killing, wheras abortions are totally voluntary.

Re: How do you feel about religion in politics?

No flaming please. First of all the whole idea of seperation between church and state...to understand what our forefathers meant by that, you have to go back to the time that the constitution was conceived. Our modern day interpretation is that no religious moral should be transposed into our everyday living. The purpose of this entry into the constitution had more to do with government choosing or prosecuting specific religions...meaning someone says you all must be x-religion (think about those who came over on the mayflower).

I think the correct interpretation of what something means is what that person says it means. Bush never said the Jesus comes and talks to him literally...what's wrong with praying? I feel as though, personally everyone in our society is very emotionally seperated from their religion now a days. He never said that he prays on what to do and a magical voice tells him. Prayer is a form of meditation...I don't consider myself very religious, but yet there have been times I have even turned to God for some important decisions...for guidence and strength to make the right decision. Sometimes just being in such deep thought about it helps sort out everything so you can get a clear enough mind to make a difficult desicion. Bush clerified what he meant by that in one of the debates...he prays a lot. woopdy doo.

If someone chooses to be an atheist that's fine (after all that nice little annotation in the constitution gives them the right to be whatever they want, right?), but is it okay for an atheist to impose THEIR beliefs on those who do believe in God. Shall we ban money next?

Also, as far as Kerry goes...I do not believe you should just feed people what they want to hear. If you listen carefully to what he says, that is exactly what he does. If he believes that life starts at conception (anyone who knows science...nothing to do w/ religion...knows that. The main unit of living is a single cell...an embryo is a bundle of cells, at 3 weeks an embryo has a nervous system and heart, by 6-8 weeks embryo's can react to touch. these are things that happen when something is alive...there is no arguing this. BTW: this info was collected from 'Biology' 6th edition, sylvia mader), why would he support abortion, etc.? Because that looks better for him politically. I may not agree w/ Bush's standing on abortion, but at least he is consistant. That I have to give him credit for.

Re: How do you feel about religion in politics?

I don't understand how anyone could argue the fact that life begins at birth. Are these people so closed minded that they can't pick up a book? If you shoot someone in the heart...their heart stops beating and they die. If you have an abortion, the baby's heart stops beating and it dies. Just because something is not visable without a sonogram makes it not exist?! How can anyone argue that if something has a beating heart and functioning nervous system it is not ALIVE? That is not religion...heck, I can say it's not science either...it's common sense! All of you reading this...check your pulse...have a heart beat? If you are reading this I would imagen you have a functioning nervous system...so, may I ask you...are you alive? If you look at every Biology/embryology text, you will find exactly that!

Sorry about the rant...I just don't understand people like that.

However, I am pro choice because abortion is going to happen weather we like it or not...even if it's illegal. The only difference is that if it is illegal women will have to go to back allys to get it done and get infections and possibly die. Again, nothing to do with religion, just value of life. However, no one has said they are going to outlaw 1st trimester abortions.

ETA: I have an idea...how about eliminating the stigma that it's not 'cool' to be a virgin? How about eliminating the ideology that women are objects and that the only way you can be looked at as beautiful, wanted, and normal is to not only have sex, but wear it on your sleeve practically? How about eliminating the pressure boys feel that they have to have sex to be a 'real man'. I know I am going to be taken out and beaten for this, but I don't understand why society must change to accommodate things that shouldn't be happening? We have to be accepting of the 15 year old who gets pregnant? Why? I think you should give that child love and understanding, but accept this as the norm...as just they way things are and we better get used to it? That is not a 'civilized' society...that's craziness.

ETA: I think the woman being fired from her job for being an unwed mother is more of an arguement for a wrongful termination suit rather than abortion

Re: How do you feel about religion in politics?

I totally believe in separation of church and state. A state ran by one's religious belief could possibly turn into another religious warfare, and that is the worst war of them all.

Re: How do you feel about religion in politics?

---

Posted by FutureMrsH

I don't understand how anyone could argue the fact that life begins at birth. Are these people so closed minded that they can't pick up a book? If you shoot someone in the heart...their heart stops beating and they die. If you have an abortion, the baby's heart stops beating and it dies. Just because something is not visable without a sonogram makes it not exist?! How can anyone argue that if something has a beating heart and functioning nervous system it is not ALIVE? That is not religion...heck, I can say it's not science either...it's common sense! All of you reading this...check your pulse...have a heart beat? If you are reading this I would imagen you have a functioning nervous system...so, may I ask you...are you alive? If you look at every Biology/embryology text, you will find exactly that!

Sorry about the rant...I just don't understand people like that.

However, I am pro choice because abortion is going to happen weather we like it or not...even if it's illegal. The only difference is that if it is illegal women will have to go to back allys to get it done and get infections and possibly die. Again, nothing to do with religion, just value of life. However, no one has said they are going to outlaw 1st trimester abortions.

---

FutureMrsH you make some excellent points. I admire that you don't try to justify your stance by ignoring scientific reality by claiming a life is not taken through abortion.

However, I have to disagree with your logic for supporting abortion. You argue that it should remain legal because it is going to happen anyway. I don't think that this is a strong enough justification for supporting the taking of a life. People are going to do drugs whether they are legal or not. Arguably, cocaine, heroin, etc. could be made safer if they were legal and regulated by the government. Does this mean that we should legalize drugs?? No! Likewise, abortion should not be legal merely because it is going to happen anyway. I believe that government has a non-delegable duty to protect life. However, for our smallest, most vulnerable people, we ignore this duty.

Re: How do you feel about religion in politics?

---

Posted by Bride626

---

FutureMrsH you make some excellent points. I admire that you don't try to justify your stance by ignoring scientific reality by claiming a life is not taken through abortion.

However, I have to disagree with your logic for supporting abortion. You argue that it should remain legal because it is going to happen anyway. I don't think that this is a strong enough justification for supporting the taking of a life. People are going to do drugs whether they are legal or not. Arguably, cocaine, heroin, etc. could be made safer if they were legal and regulated by the government. Does this mean that we should legalize drugs?? No! Likewise, abortion should not be legal merely because it is going to happen anyway. I believe that government has a non-delegable duty to protect life. However, for our smallest, most vulnerable people, we ignore this duty.

---

I too think you have excellent points. I just think back to the days when abortion was not legal...I think it was the 50's/60's. Women would go get abortions from some guy on the street w/ a folding table and a wire hanger. Women have died doing this. I do not support abortion, but I do feel that their are some cases where it should be permitted...and it's okay to disagree w/ me on this...but personally, if I was pregnant and the doctor said you have to choose between your life and the baby's...I have to be honest...I would terminate my pregnancy. Most children born in situations like that do not live anyway (because there is usually an underlying medical problem that brings on this circumstance) and to think of poor FH having to loose us both, or having a baby grow up w/ out a mother...I would not do that. I also value my own life too (which may be selfish, but it's the truth...and I know FH would support me on that too. We have already discussed it and I plan on having a living will).

Again, this does not say that you are not entitled to your view on abortion. I just think everyone is jumping the gun a bit by saying that if you vote one way there will be abortion, if you vote the other way you won't. I don't think a reversal of roe vs wade would happen too quickly. No one has even said they are going to do that. Since abortion has been legal, we have had a few republicans in office (and they all are on the pro-life platform because that is where the party stands) and roe vs wade has yet to be abolished. Bush has also been in office for 4 years and roe vs wade has not been abolished. Partial birth abortions are barbaric and should not be a part of our society. I think the majority agrees on that. Seeing that banned is not a surprise.

ETA: I agree, I think our most precious resources are ignored in many ways.

Re: How do you feel about religion in politics?

---

Posted by june262004

Seperation of church and state. They should never be crossed!

---

Ditto a hundred times over.
In fact, maybe it's just because I'm a little older this election, but it seems like there's been more religious references this pre-election period then I remember from last time around. I have to say that if we are leaning towards a society that mixes politics and religion, our country will be taking a scary turn for the worse. JMHO.