LENDING MONEY...Touchy subject, but we've ALL got an opinion, right?

OK, this goes a few months back, but it just came back to mind yesterday, and I was curious what everyone thinks of this subject and if you've ever regretted lending money out to family or friends...

DH is a very giving person. He will take the shirt off his back for anyone that needs it. Heck, so will I, but in this case I wouldnt have, but I kinda let him make the decision...as much as the circumstances annoyed me.

I'll try to make it brief...to the point..
His old buddy (who lives in FL) just finished law school. He thought he was going to be 'well off' with his first job out of law school (hello, ignorant???) With the costs of homes being SOOO LOW in FL, they upgraded from their VERY NICE home, to one that we'd probably drool over... Next, his wife (hairdresser) quit her job maybe last year, since she figured she'd be 'well to do' and can stay home and get massages all day (ignorant again???) What else? He'd tell John about how theyd live so 'comfortably' and enjoy life and have nice dinners out, fine wine and the whole bit They most likely (since we're sensing a trend in spending here) ran up credit card and who knows what other debt... and you guessed it, now they are crying for money to buy their next loaf of bread !!!!!!!!!

Now John being an only child, and this guy being more than a brother to him Id say for many years (15yrs?), till they somewhat grew apart and this kid moved to FL and got married. But my MIL even told me how close they were, so I looked at this situation as 'giving to a brother' and I KNOW that John would NEVER question lending my siblings (or even my closest friends) ANY amount of money, period. So I tried to have an open mind, although the whole situation really annoyed me.

Now he asked for 'any amount' (CAN YOU IMAGINE???? not for nothing, but he knows full well that we are expecting baby#2 and I am not working, what kind of conscience does he have????) Thank God we are not hurting financially, or living paychk to paychk and we 'could' help out, but the whole principle really bothered me. John decided on $500 (any more and I would have threw his pillow and clothes out with him ) But as little as $500 is, and yes, he did help out 'a friend in need' I still cant beleive that this guy took it and could sleep the next night!

Dont you SEE Your bank accounts dwindling???
Does it have to come to this for you to have to 'beg' for your next meal ??? Supposedly this money was for having his home appraised to sell it, otherwise he couldnt even sell it. Their families are not on best terms with them so no one was 'there for them' when they needed it.

OK, ready for the KICKER??? sit down for this.(even though this was 3yrs ago..hey its not easily forgotten!) He was supposed to be in our bridal party (GM). The tux store even had his info in FL to get his measurements, etc.
Well come the morning of the wedding, we STILL hadnt heard or seen him, he had told John he was in the midst of Law school exams and absolutely couldnt come IF it was exam week. So they 'no showed' and never called. John was in contact with him later that week, he found out we'd be stopping in FL after our HM and they told us we MUST stop by for dinner, hang out, etc. They were in NY that weekend for a sick uncle ( ) and everything was so crazy with family that wanted to see them, that they didnt get around to contacting us!!!!
I even let this story slide because I dont know him that well, and John said 'fine whatever' in a way, and acted as if all was ok...(doormat?) We go to FL, hang out with them, and dont even get A CARD from them. Not even a card or a token gift or a 'sorry we couldnt make it'???
We just hung out with them as if nothing happened, and him and John were more caught up in their own reunion (from losing touch, growing apart, and all their memories) that the rest seemed to fade into the background.
I have to say, as crazy as this sounds, I was MOVED by seeing John so emotional, happy, truly happy from the bottom of his heart, they laughed like they were back in HS over their side-splitting stories, etc. It was like brothers reuiniting. So is it crazy to say, that since John is an only child, I was kinda mushy for him and so happy for this person that meant so much to him, to be part of his life again...
but how did all those other pieces of the puzzle just fade into nothing???

If youve read this far ( ) you must have an opinion... Although I think John is entitled to have whichever friendships he chooses are meaningful (and he's a GREAT judge of character and will NOT even think twice about someone that rubs him the wrong way)...
Am I entitled to give my opinion and bring this back up as far as reminding his friend to give himteh money back (and being a 'Lawyer' he should know FULL WELL that it was a loan, and he did say it CLEARLY to John that he would pay it back AS SOON AS they were back on their feet and John has that trust for him.
Where do I stand? I totally trust my husbands judgement, I respect this friendship he had and how he 'was there for him' (even though in this case, I might not done the same)... but to what point do you play the nice guy? Up to what point is 'long enough' for this loan? Although it really IS a small amount, the whole principle behind it, the HUGE spending mistakes they made, letting themselves fall into such a hole, and then ringing up buddy John and asking him, with a baby and a preggo wife, with a clear conscience?
OK, I babbled enough... I just wanted to get opinions on this.....thanks for listening...

My opinion, in my experience t'hose who cry about not having money,usually have more than anyone'

For him to accept $500 things are not that bad. Is his phone still on? did his wife go back to work? did his friend take a 2nd job?

Hmm this guy seems like a loaf

Sorry jmo

About 13 or 14 years ago, my parents lost their jobs within 2 weeks of one another. I grew up in Syosset where, as I was waiting in line for the free lunches I had to get until my parents were working, I actually had a conversation with a kid who said, 'there are no poor people in Syosset.' It was probably one of the most humiliating things anyone has ever said to me (even though he didn't necessarily know I was getting a free lunch and what was going on in my life) because it was as if we should be ashamed for not having money. However (and really, I have a point ), during that time when my parents were both not working and afterwards when they were struggling, 2 friends of theirs who were like siblings to them as well, completely separately and without even really knowing the other, sent my parents checks. Small checks for about $100 or $200, but neither of these people were rolling in the dough. The mere fact that they were kind enough in my family's time of need to reach into their pockets and give to us meant more to my parents than anything else.

However, my parents never cashed either of the checks and they are sitting in a frame in their kitchen to this day as a reminder of the generosity of others and knowing who your true friends are.

So what's my point? My point is that in this guy's situation, there was no sudden thing that caused them to be in the financial pickle they are in. It was their own choices that put them there. I think he had a huge set of balls to even ask you guys for money, and I think that your husband has a very big heart. Even had he not asked for the money outright, would your husband have sent them anything? If he did, you know this guy would have had no problem cashing an unexpected check, either. I would not, however, ever expect to see your money back again, based on what you've said about this guy. Why is his wife not going back to work as a hairdresser? Does your hubby simply not see any of the crap this guy is dishing out or does he choose to ignore it? You know your relationship with him best, so only you really know how he'll react if you bring it up to him, but I don't think there's anything wrong with you asking him to take a step back and look at this man's actions and find out if this is the 'friendship' it used to be. This behavior will not stop. Again, you will NEVER see that money from him and I wouldn't doubt if he asks again.

I think this guy sucks. Sorry.

It's a good thing I don't have much time because I can go on and on about this topic.

In short, I am a big believer in not lending money, especially large amounts. I'm not talking about when a co worker leaves her wallet at home and needs $5.00 for lunch-I'd give her ten and say take your time returning it. Long story short, a large loan caused a rift in my family that caused my mom and her brother to not speak for 13 years. I didn't even meet my cousins on that side until I was twelve. My mom also didn't speak to one of her sisters for many years. My parents were asked to lend assorted people in the family money (the reasoning was that my mom is the oldest of her siblings-oldest=richest? Never heard that.) Needless to say, very little of the money was seen again. The lendees got defensive and the rest is history. One of my best girlfriends screwed a mutual friend out of a lot of money many years ago when she faced an unplanned pregnancy and needed help. I don't think he got anything back. DH wanted to lend a friend money and fortunately I managed to limit it to a small amount.

In situations like yours, the money never seems to reappear. It's sad to say, but people who get into enough trouble to need to ask for money rarely learn their lesson, and if they do, it takes a long time like in my family. Also, people who have the nerve to ask for it also have the nerve to fabricate every excuse possible to avoid paying it back. I wish I had a more encouraging opinion but I've seen the same story replayed over and over again.

You have my sympathy. I think men are blinder to this than women are, most of the time. Stand your ground that this is the last of the loans and encourage him to keep on his friend to get his money back. Remind Dh that resentment will build eventually and it will ultimately hurt the friendship if this cycle continues.

Hrmm..

When I was younger I had a privilaged life. Then my parents divorced and I was as poor as poor can possibly be. We rebounded with very little help because of family tension over the divorce. Those who 'lended' my father money rode him ruthlessly for pay back. Fast forward to later years with my stepmother. She'd lend you money and ask for interest on the loan and require it to be paid off in a month. She would keep my brother poor with this tactic.

My brother, bless him, has made some very poor choices. He wants to live life to its fullest and has never really been good with money. His wife is no better. They over extend. Now my nephew is the world to me. If I hear they need money I usually send it unasked.

Once they asked (which is hard on them) for $500. Now Im not rich by any means. Jim & I both work and $500 is a LOT of money for my budget. My nephew wouldnt starve, my father wouldnt allow that, so the money was for purely financial reasons. Im not stupid I know he screws up with money. He has crap I dont have like flat screen TV's, sound systems and cool recording equipement but they make only a portion what I do, combined!! So I know this request was for poor money management.

I sent the money. But I learned long ago, expect NEVER to see the money again. I don't care how rich they become I never lend money out with the belief I'll see it again. I've BEEN there myself too many times. I believe what comes around goes around. Now if I hit a bump in the road and need help if he can't help me I know it's because he just can't. To me it's money, if I couldnt give him the money then I wouldnt.

I'd rather it be spent to help him than just held back cause I know it will never be repaid. I would spend that money on what? Good food or a night out at the movies.. I'd feel horrible to know I live the high life because I earned that right but allow my brother to suffer. We've been poor and I promised myself to never allow those I love to live like that. The guilt would kill me. Yes I know I worked for it, I should keep it, he did nothing, the whole cricket and ant story theory. The point is, we're family. We should allow eachother to suffer needlessly. Not helping would be selfish in my mind. Asking for the money back would be insulting. It's family, you do what you can do, no questions. Associates and aquaintances require repayment immediately. For Family it's all the same and connected, no payment is required, just be there if I really need you and this time YOU can help me.

Sorry if this doesnt help. But I've been through so much financially in my life that money is just money. Either you have it or you don't. Money can ruin a relationship and you have to wonder, is it worth it?

I wouldnt try to get the money back and I wouldnt hope it would come back. That's just being family and helping out.. to me.


sorry so long

NO MORE LENDING!!!!

I'm so impressed by John's kindness and big heart, but NY is an expensive place to live, and there are 4 mouths in your house that need feeding and 4 bodies to clothe.

I know I sound harsh, but I agree with Jenn P ~ a small loan, like lunch money or 'I love these pants but they're $75 and I only have $60... could you spot me?' is one thing, but large sums are BAD news. Relationships suffer terribly from loans gone bad.

What a wonderful DH you have, who is so willing to help a friend in need, but it doesn't sound like this guy would have John's back if he needed him. I hope I'm wrong...

Just hearing the way that you describe John's big-hearted approach to this guy, and their long history together as friends sounds to me like John probably lent his friend the money without really caring whether or not it was ever paid back. Like you said - it's not like you guys are 'hurting' for $500. John did what he could for his friend, and is holding no grudges - about the money or the no-show at the wedding.

It sounds like this situation bothers you more, b/c you don't have the same 'feeling' in your heart for this person, and you obviously view his choices as irresponsible and foolish.
I sympathize w/your point about the principle behind the matter, but when it comes to money, people often have no concscience. Sad, but true.

I agree w/Wacky - the ones who cry poverty the loudest usually have the most - my SIL is like that. She never has the money for anything EXCEPT herself!

If you can, I'd say let this go...but, I'd be firm with my hubby about not lending this guy ANYTHING in the future. JMO.

MY FH would do the same thing. I can completely relate. I really do agree with Jannshari though... these people made poor decisions in spending that put them in debt, it wasn't just a string of bad luck or misfortunes. THEY DID IT TO THEMSELVES!

i also agree with whoever said you won't see the money again.

be thankful, though it is only $500... my dad loaned money for an 'investment' to a long-time friend YEARS ago, without telling my mother, to the tune of somewhere around 50K.... and guess who never got it back?

Truthfully, at this point I would just forget the $500 since,more than likely, you will never see it again.

I understand your husband wanting to be generous to a friend who is like a brother. Your hubby sounds like a sweet guy and unfortunately some people have no qualms about taking advantage of their friends and family and it certainly sounds like his friend did just that. I would speak to your hubby about it one more time and make it clear that future loans to this friend are out of the question. Then just let it go. Not much you can do about it now.

I learned also from a similar experience in my family. You are safer never lending money to or doing business with family and friends. Somehow it always comes back to haunt you.

OMG, I have to always remember what my father tells my about this. He says 'If you want to get rid of somebody, loan them some money'. It is so true. FH and I are always getting asked to borrow money. His sister owes me $100, his sister in-law owes me $120, and his brother owes him $500. It is ridiculuos!!! But not only that, the funny thing is that the people who owe us money are constantly buying things right in front of our faces. It makes me so mad, but then when we ask them 'Oh, things are so hard right now,' blah blah blah. A bunch of BS.

gosh - I feel guilty now...my mom bailed me out of credit card debt my senior year of college...($2K) and I paid back a little - but never the whole thing... but thats my mom

I agree with those who say...let the $500 go and make John promise not to give anymore...

Thank you all for your honest and true opinions.
My MIL did say, first thing, 'just dont expect to see it again, and if you do, maybe a year or 2 down the road...' But basically to just act like that money didnt exist...
(and she DOES think he's the type of guy that WOULD repay her son, but from hearing these stories, she's shocked at how irresponsible he has become, so I guess to get it off my mind, she said this...)

To respond to some of you:
Wacky-I totally agree about those crying poverty being the ones that have it most
Claud, I know people ALOT like your SIL. They have the best of everything and when it comes to gift-giving, youd think they had to shop at the thrift store due to their 'poverty' I wouldnt buy something for someone in any less quality than I would buy myself or my family..
I really hope his wife went back to work, and I hope they are both working at the local grocery store to make ends meet
Jann-sounds like those were 2 very good friends of your parents. All friends should be that loyal and good. There are very few we come across in life like that, I guess that's why we treasure those few so much. I love the frame idea. Very touching and meaningful
JennP - I hate hearing stories of families splitting, especially sibligns over money. I pray that never happens in my family. I would do everything in my power to never let that happen I know thats easier said than done in most 'real life' cases. Ive heard a good share of them among my distant family and friends families. What a shame.
Xelindra-I dont think its a matter of someone letting another person live in poverty. DH's buddy (and your brother, in your story) Im sure were not living 'poorly' in any way shape or form. It sounds to me that they were living better than those they got the money from, which is part of the principle that really bothers me
I know what you mean about being there for family, and thats why I didnt make a fuss when John did send him a check, because I felt like this guy was as close as family to him, years ago, and I know he wouldnt deny me the opportunity to help ANYONE out that I felt in my heart we should help, whether it be friends or family.
Question to ponder...
But what kind of family can we say someone is when we can expect to not see the money ever again? Im not asking anyone the question, Im just throwing it out for discussion. I appreciate your honest story and your opinions Just continuing the discussion.
Its sad that life is like this at times, I know MANY stories/relationships/friendships, where one is always giving, the other is always receiving and life goes on... One of them is not fulfilling their share of that friendship and grinning behind the smirk as the other one digs for his wallet time and time again.

Erica-with mommy, it can be a different story

Thanks again for your responses. Its good to see that Im not cruel in my thinking, and that I have a point to feel this way... and its also hard to know that so many people can sleep at night being 'losers' like this...

I guess we can all sleep better being 'the bigger person'....
Sometimes I just cant see that fine line between being the bigger person and being a doormat

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Posted by anna

Sometimes I just cant see that fine line between being the bigger person and being a doormat

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The only thing that will help you to see the difference between being a bigger person or being a doormat is the way you choose to think about it from here on out.

If you think to yourself, 'Look at what John and I did...we have been blessed with financial security, and we helped out someone in need...etc...' than you will more than likely start to really feel like the bigger person who tried to help your hubby's longtime friend.

If you continue to lament this guy's poor financial choices, than you will have a difficult time putting this incident behind you - especially if he really never does payback the money to you and John. With that in mind, you'll never lose the 'doormat' feeling.

Claud, youre so right

Im glad I was in that 'better person' frame of mind at the time, that I kinda told John whatever he felt was the best thing to do, Id be ok with it, (just this once, and as a loan, and just a certain amount) I guess I wanted to respect Johns judgement and support his decision, and he did ask my opinion...
and I kinda was in that frame of mind for the past few months that it hasnt bothered me at all..

But then in other totally unrelated discussions that made me think of it, I got all annoyed by the whole story all of a sudden.......

Im sure Ive played (at other times) what I felt was the bigger person, when others would have told me I was the doormat/pushover in the situation (I hate to use that word!)

Thanks for 'sitting me back down' to clear my head a little.... I guess I'll have to let it roll off my back and see what happens in time...

Its more the principle and the true test of the friendship than the money...


and just to see how they acted like 2 big kids in Disneyworld together (at 30yrs old, LOL) after YEARS of not seeing eachother, kinda makes me sappy all over again...(ugh these hormones..)
Im always saying 'I wish John had siblings to understand the many powerful dynamics and experiences that go with it' (that sometimes I think he's never experienced, being an only child and not always comprehending discussions or love-hate circumstances I have with my adored siblings....
and in some ways, I felt like I met a long lost brother of his that day... OK, am I being the pushover now??

hey i will hjust chime in here with the other girls-

count that money gone....
if that is a sticky point...have hubby call his friends and say that you two are getting ready to do your taxes. That you will be mailing him a note and you need his signature on it...no big deal...to verify that you have made a cartible donation to his family.
This way you can claim the deduction on your taxes

speak to hubby and lay down some ground rules for BOTH of you to follow....

since the friend did this to himself, AND asked you to help him out...he now unknowingly has opened up his spending habits to review by u..

you are intitled to NICELY ask how things are going...and where his wife is now working...etc..

people like this need wake up calls....next time he wants a loan..tell him you will gladly pay for THEM to attend a income/debt management course...
that you want to help more than that ..but this seems to be a pattern...and you have to think of your OWN children...etc

sorry if I am rantingl... You are talking to the ANT in the ant vs grasshopper story.