Squats

Hi,

I did some squats/lunges yesterday and now my left knee is killing me, esp when I get up and sit down. Last week when I did a taebo bootcamp tape the same thing happened.

Is there another excercise anyone recommends that will be easier on my knees (that I can do at home)? Oh and Im always careful to not let my knee go past my foot so I dont think its my form either.

I think the taebo is what is causing your knee pain.
could this be true?

squats done with good form should not cause knee pain. Aren't you kicking your legs in that workout?

it would be a shame to stop the squats all together. Can you stop the taebo and see how you feel?

When you do the upward part of your squats, are you pushing up through your heels, or your toes? You should be pushing up through your heels mostly. Pushing up with your toes or the front of your foot will put more strain on the quads and the knee stabilizer ligaments (like the ACL).
Do you do any leg extensions? That'll help build up your quads which may make squats easier on the knees.
Also wanted to add that you should try Smith machine squats (if you don't already do them). The Smith machine makes it easier to keep strict form.

Thats the strange thing I do alot of kicking w/ advanced tae bo (high impact aerobics) and never feel any strain or pain in my knee.

The taebo bootcamp - I did once and it was more low impact aerobics and focused more on lunges and squats too.

I may be pushing up on my toes instead of my heels, I'll try that and see if it helps.

Thanks guys!

here is a link to one of my favorite websites.

http://www.stumptuous.com/cms/displayarticle.php?aid=52

this page explains the myths of squatting and why you should NEVER use a smith machine for squats.

it is a very useful site. she knows what she is talking about.

Interesting website - I've never seen it before. But where does she say to never use the Smith machine? All I saw was this:
f) squatting in a Smith machine which does not allow proper shifts in weight through the movement, and results in shear on knee and spine.

And I wonder exactly what she means by that?
I've never heard of the Smith machine being bad.

Wait, I just found this on another website:

'Smith Machine Squats -
Squats should not be performed in a smith machine. The fixed path of the bar results in the knees being forced far forward of the feet if the feet are positioned directly below the body, placing tremendous stress on the knee joint. If the feet are positioned further forward to compensate for this, the spine tends to flex during the exercise, exposing the lower back to greater risk of injury.'



I see now. I always put my feet further forward with Smith machine squats than when I do regular barbell squats, so I guess I don't have to worry! But good point

Squats are my favorite excersise and should be done in EVERY routine BUT!!!!!!! they can be dangerous and extreme focus and attention to form MUST be present.

**I will get to the smith machine at the end**

First pick a weight that you can lift easily when learning.

-First is the set up: Balance the weight evenly NO PADS on your back holding the weight outside shoulder length.

-Your legs should be about shoulder width apart and toes straight.

- Heels should be firmly planted on the ground throughout the entire lift.

-**Your first motion is kicking the butt out (Breaking at the hips). As you lower your zelf, your back should arch and you should continue to bring your butt backwards. TRY TO KEEP A STRAIGHT SHIN! The knee SHOULD NEVER!! cross the toes EVER!

- Go as low as you can keeping the knees from pinching or flairing. If knees pinch or flare out you have a weekness in you abductors or aductors. This needs to be fixed.

- your depth should be where you can go without pinchng / flaring or your heels leaving the ground. The three depths are 1/2 squats (you do not hit the 90* mark), the full squat (You hit parallell) and the HARD! deep (or basement) squats when you drop go beyon the 90* Mark). Deep squats are mostly for power lifters and seasoned lifters sho be concerned with going to parallell).

-When raising, lift from the heels. Push them through the floor. Stay ont he same plain of motion and keep the back arch all the way to the top.

****NEVER EVER EVER LETS THE KNEE CROSS THE TOE LINE!! IT CAN RIP YOUR KNEE APART AND YOU WILL BE LOOKING FOR WEDDING DRESSES WITH A KNEE BRACE ON AND YOUR HONEY WILL BE GET SCOPED! Very dangerous to allow this and I cannot emphisise it enough!!

---The smith machine is best used for Walk Aways. these are done by going to the smith machine, laoding it with a lot of weights - much mroe then you can ver handle, looking at it and then walking away without every actually using it.

The Smith machine in theory is great. it allows for safty from being squashed by weights BUT you should not be lifting what you cnanot handle anyway. That is for the moron muscle heads who want to pretend to be strong when they are really doing more harm then good.

Here are the problems:
()Balanced weight: Your stabalizers fo not have to work to balance the weight, it is already there. it gives a false sense of strength.

()Single plain of motion: Our bodies simply do not naturally follow the plain of motion that a Smith Machine forces si to follow:

() Injury potenital is INCREASED in the knees because they are forced to take extra grunt because of the position.

DO NOT USE THE SMITH MACHINE!! Unless the coat hangers are filled, you really should have no use for it.

Thanks Nicole!

Thanks for posting that. I am so against the smith machine!!

Anyway. I agree about all your points about the squats except for the comment on going past parallel.

I have been going past parallel for over a year now and it is the best decision I have ever mad in regards to training! It is better for the butt! As long as you have good form, go as far down as you can!! just keep your chest up, don't round your back, and keep your heels on the floor at all times!

I still don't agree with Smith machine squats being bad, as long as you do them with the proper form (as is the case with ANY exercise). I'm not a guy obviously, and I don't load up the Smith machine with more weight than I can handle. I only use the Smith machine with lighter weigths than I normally squat, and do high reps. And I use a specific form (feet further forward, like I said earlier). I've been doing this for 8 years with no problems.
Anyway, JMO! For me it works; for others who are trying to build leg mass, it would be a waste of time.

And Christine, I also go below parallel on regular squats. It recruits a lot more muscle fibers.

' still don't agree with Smith machine squats being bad, as long as you do them with the proper form (as is the case with ANY exercise). I'm not a guy obviously, and I don't load up the Smith machine with more weight than I can handle. I only use the Smith machine with lighter weigths than I normally squat, and do high reps. And I use a specific form (feet further forward, like I said earlier). I've been doing this for 8 years with no problems.
Anyway, JMO! For me it works; for others who are trying to build leg mass, it would be a waste of time.

And Christine, I also go below parallel on regular squats. It recruits a lot more muscle fibers. '

YOU CANNT USE PROPER FORM when usingt he Smith Machine. You cannot have the arch in your lower back that helps prevent injury!!

The Smith Machine is a BAD choice!!!

---

Posted by Nic and Ant

' still don't agree with Smith machine squats being bad, as long as you do them with the proper form (as is the case with ANY exercise). I'm not a guy obviously, and I don't load up the Smith machine with more weight than I can handle. I only use the Smith machine with lighter weigths than I normally squat, and do high reps. And I use a specific form (feet further forward, like I said earlier). I've been doing this for 8 years with no problems.
Anyway, JMO! For me it works; for others who are trying to build leg mass, it would be a waste of time.

And Christine, I also go below parallel on regular squats. It recruits a lot more muscle fibers. '

YOU CANNT USE PROPER FORM when usingt he Smith Machine. You cannot have the arch in your lower back that helps prevent injury!!

The Smith Machine is a BAD choice!!!

---

Ok, question for you - why do they show Smith machine squats in M&F then? (I was just flipping through some old issues last night, and in the July '05 issue there was a whole spread on Smith machine exercises, one being the squat! And using the exact form that I mentioned that I do, no arch in the back by the way. This is not a traditional squat!)
I don't see how a magazine that has a staff of writers with PhD's would allow such a horrible exercise to be published....
Just asking!

M & F? Muscle and Fitness?

I'll tell ya what. here are some links or ya. These are VERY reputal authors and professionals.

t-mag : Eric Cressy - it is notable that T-Mag hires the top strength coaches and trainers in the WORLD.

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=05-179-training

'The Smith machine is the equipment parallel to High Intensity Training. On one hand, it's been called more dirty names than Madonna on a trip to the Vatican. On the other hand, there are those who vehemently adhere to it in spite of the fact that it's an inferior way to train.'

The exercises it describes are NOT anything you would think.

more:

Staff artical: They hire the best!!

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=05-069-training

[below picture]
'Caption: How to perform a Smith machine squat. Step #1: Don't.'

'What's wrong with the Smith? First, there's zero functional transfer to real life, sports or other lifts. It develops strength in only one dimension, predisposing you to injury in the undeveloped planes of movement. This is sometimes called pattern overload syndrome, and it can lead to medical bills in the long run.

Second, because the bar is fixed, a person doing Smith machine squats is able to lean against the bar, which is a natural response. This minimizes hip extension, thus allowing the hamstrings to take a siesta during the movement. Trouble is, the hamstrings help to stabilize the knee during squats, and the result of taking them out of the picture is to induce a shearing force on the joint. This might ultimately lead to a blown anterior cruciate ligament. Using the Smith machine for all your squatting definitely leads to you being a big fat dork. '

menshealth: Mary Christ
http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article.do?site=MensHealth&channel=fitness&category=fitness.tips&conitem=620a99edbbbd201099edbbbd2010cfe793cd____

artical entited 'FAULTY EQUIPMENT'

'Smith Machine (for squats)
Why it's bad: The path the bar follows doesn't allow for proper spine mechanics, which can place excessive stress on the lower back. That's because the natural movement of your body during a squat is an arc, not straight up and down. Stick with the free-weight version.'

well there is hope because when the 'safety' failed - the only positive the Smith Machine is supposed to offer - a 14.4 million dollar lawsuite was won when a gentleman crushed his spine.

http://www.fitnessbusiness-pro.com/mag/fitness_smith_machine_lawsuit/index.html

ARCH THE BACK!! It will protect the spine!! The Machine does not allow it.

***********************************************************************************************************Oh there is more - check next reply

http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/faq15.htm

'1.7 Q. What is the correct form for a squat?

A. First off, the proper form implies the following.
- No rounding of the lower back!
- Abdominal muscles tight throughout entire duration of lift
- Foot stance is up to the individual.
To activate more quad involvement, squat with a somewhat narrow stance
To activate more glute/ham/hip involvement, squat with a wider stance
It would be a good idea to switch stances from time to time
Toes should stay pointed in the same direction as the tracking of the knee to prevent rotation about the knee
Try to keep shins as close to perpendicular with the ground as is possible
Weight should be resting on the heels and not on the balls of the feet or on the toes
Knees should never jut out past the plane made by the toes
The knees should not bow in or out during the movement (very destructive to the ligaments and tendons)
The movement should be started by breaking at the hips and the squatter should visualize sitting back onto a box
The chest should be out, the head looking slightly up
The movement initiated from the bottom should start with the head
The squat depth should be at least to parallel. For better muscle recruitment, squat below parallel.

Now, keeping the above in mind, the lifter should always make use of a spotter and/or a power cage with the safety pins set to catch the weight if the lifter fails. Then, the lifter needs to set up under the bar, tighten the abdominal muscles, situate the bar on the shoulders and step back into the proper stance (again, it depends on what muscles you are wishing to stimulate … normally, shoulder width is good). Then, with the chest out, the head slightly up (it helps to focus on a point on the wall that is slightly above eye level), take a breath and hold it (remember to keep the abdominal muscles tight and the lower back slightly arched). Begin the movement by breaking at the hips and sticking the butt back (much like if you were going to sit down into a chair). Using a controlled descent, you will squat down to the desired depth (at least to parallel), then reverse the movement and stand up (make sure not to bounce at the bottom). > Roger Broeg, Gregory Whalin, Tommy O'Brien '


http://www.allaboutfitness.com/abmaxrack_research.htm

Tudor Bompa is a GOD in the industry. He developed periodization (and know it or not) everybody uses it some how or some way.

SMITH MACHINES: Building Muscle or Causing Injury.

WATCH OUT for that “self-spotting” Smith machine next time you’re at the gym. Although thousands of gym-goers rely on these machines everyday for a safe, spotter-free workout, experts in the field are starting to question just how safe Smith machines really are. It might be self-spotting, but is the linear barbell movement of the machine putting excessive strain on your back and knees? Smith machines are currently well accepted throughout the entire industry, but should professionals really be allowing their clients and athletes to do squats and bench presses with this equipment?

Recent studies, research and applied biomechanical theories shed some light into this debate that affects so many lifters everyday. T.O. Bompa and L.J. Cornacchia jointly authored some of the most well-read material written on this subject in 1998. In an article published in the Journal of Athletic Training by the National Trainer’s Association, they write, “The Smith machine forces you to move the bar on a straight line while your body is planted in one spot. This is not a natural movement pattern.” Bompa and Cornacchia go on to explain that the spine’s natural curvature and integrity is undermined by the machine’s movement in only one dimension, the vertical plane. As a result, lifters may incur injuries of the back or joints. “The straight up and down movement of the bar while your feet are planted in a Smith machine squat produces excessive strain on the lower back and knees

Interesting stuff Ant. One thing you're not understanding though is that I'm not a bodybuilder, and I'm not trying to lift heavy weights with the Smith, and I'm not looking to do a traditional squat with the Smith, and I don't ALWAYS use it! I just use the Smith to supplement my workout, and to work specific muscles. So I'm going to keep on doing it. And you can keep on telling people to stay away from it
I believe that there's a right and a wrong way to use every machine and do every exercise, and I've found that what I do with the Smith works for me. It has for 8 years!

ANYWAY, thanks for the articles! I think we should just drop this topic otherwise this thread will never die!