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Constitutional Discussion

kimNanthony Posted:

Constitutional Discussion

So normally I am extremely careful about what I post on here (especially politics) because I may run for President one day! Well maybe not president but an office

This Supreme Court decision came down and I would love to hear others opinions on it.

With a lamentable 5-to-4 ruling on Wednesday, the Supreme Court carved a new exception to the nearly century-old exclusionary rule, which forbids prosecutors from using evidence obtained by the police as the result of an improper search.

The result was a meaningful dilution of Americans' Fourth Amendment protections and one more instance of the court's conservative majority upsetting precedent without admitting that it is doing so.

The case centered on the 2004 arrest of Bennie Dean Herring by police officers in Coffee County, Ala., based on a mistaken belief that he was the subject of an outstanding warrant.

It turned out that the warrant, although still in the computerized database of a neighboring town, had been withdrawn five months earlier.

By the time the error was discovered, officers had stopped Mr. Herring, handcuffed him, searched him and his truck and found methamphetamine and an unloaded pistol.

No one disputed that Mr. Herring's arrest lacked probable cause and that both the arrest and the search were therefore unconstitutional.

Nevertheless, the Supreme Court declined to exclude the seized evidence, and upheld Mr. Herring's conviction on drug and gun charges. The arrest was based on careless police record-keeping rather intentional misconduct, the court reasoned.

'To trigger the exclusionary rule,' Chief Justice John Roberts wrote for the majority, 'police conduct must be sufficiently deliberate that exclusion can meaningfully deter it, and sufficiently culpable that such deterrence is worth the price paid by the justice system.' The decision instructs judges to use a sliding scale to decide whether police misconduct warrants suppressing evidence.

That may seem reasonable, but it ignores both the inadequacy in the real world of using a cost-benefit calculus to deter unconstitutional law enforcement conduct, and the harm of involving the courts in trampling on people's rights by admitting the fruits of an unconstitutional search.

The decision also overlooks the importance of preserving a strong incentive for maintaining accurate, up-to-date records in an era of increased law-enforcement reliance on coordinated computer databases. These points were noted by Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg in a thoughtful dissenting opinion.

The outcome was not very surprising. In recent years, the court has carved out several 'good faith' exceptions to the exclusionary rule, and justices on the court's right flank have made no secret of their ambition to carve out more.

But until this week, those exceptions were limited to instances when the improper search resulted from nonpolice errors, say by judicial officers or a legislature -- not solely from police behavior.

The danger of this ruling is that judges will read its broad reasoning to prevent the exclusion of evidence in cases of negligent police conduct going well beyond sloppy record-keeping.
Mici n KC Posted:

Re: Constitutional Discussion

I don't know about that specific case. He would never had been caught for drugs if it wasn't for mistaken identity arrest.

What about when cops are trying to get evidence on someone that is clearly guilty of the crime? I don't think evidence should be excluded then. I mean, don't beat the crap out of someone or break into their house, but there are so many technicalities that people have gotten off on because of excluded evidence which is BS!
kimNanthony Posted:

Re: Constitutional Discussion

Right so under the old law whatever evidence they found would not have been admissible in court but now because of the new exception the drugs are admissible.

kimNanthony Posted:

Re: Constitutional Discussion

Somebody else has to care about their constitutional right not to be illegally searched by the police!!!!!!

Mici n KC Posted:

Re: Constitutional Discussion


Posted by kimNanthony

Somebody else has to care about their constitutional right not to be illegally searched by the police!!!!!!



I think it's such a fine line though especially in this case. I personally think people will get theirs and the guy would have been caught either way, but then again this could be him getting his lol. Who knows how long he's been doing this and trying not to get caught and because of a fluke he got caught.
lizzie217 Posted:

Re: Constitutional Discussion

I CARE! It comes down to giving police more power over those who should presumed innocent IMO. As a caucasian female I know it is unlikely to become a victim, and have lived life uneffected. However, working with teenagers in the inner city (majority minority) I saw racism and profiling resulting in a lot of these types of searches. In some cases I can see that the evidence should be used, often criminals literally get away with murder, I think though that this could lead to a lot of innocent people being treated unfairly.

Mici n KC Posted:

Re: Constitutional Discussion


Posted by lizzie217

I CARE! It comes down to giving police more power over those who should presumed innocent IMO. As a caucasian female I know it is unlikely to become a victim, and have lived life uneffected. However, working with teenagers in the inner city (majority minority) I saw racism and profiling resulting in a lot of these types of searches. In some cases I can see that the evidence should be used, often criminals literally get away with murder, I think though that this could lead to a lot of innocent people being treated unfairly.



So true, but I know there has to be other laws protecting people. Like a cop just can't come up to me and give me your bag because you have a gun or drugs in it. I'll fight them and claim brutality!
lizzie217 Posted:

Re: Constitutional Discussion


Posted by Mici n KC

.



So true, but I know there has to be other laws protecting people. Like a cop just can't come up to me and give me your bag because you have a gun or drugs in it. I'll fight them and claim brutality!


kimNanthony Posted:

Re: Constitutional Discussion


Posted by lizzie217

I CARE! It comes down to giving police more power over those who should presumed innocent IMO. As a caucasian female I know it is unlikely to become a victim, and have lived life uneffected. However, working with teenagers in the inner city (majority minority) I saw racism and profiling resulting in a lot of these types of searches. In some cases I can see that the evidence should be used, often criminals literally get away with murder, I think though that this could lead to a lot of innocent people being treated unfairly.



I am was just kidding. I am a lawyer and supporter of constitutional rights so this is very interesting (and troublesome to me). It just seems that when there is a law and an exception is created, little by little the exception starts to become a law. So the problem is where will this stop? All the police officers have to do it lie and say they did not act maliciously and just 'happened to find the evidence.'
lizzie217 Posted:

Re: Constitutional Discussion


.


I am was just kidding. I am a lawyer and supporter of constitutional rights so this is very interesting (and troublesome to me). It just seems that when there is a law and an exception is created, little by little the exception starts to become a law. So the problem is where will this stop? All the police officers have to do it lie and say they did not act maliciously and just 'happened to find the evidence.'


My brother and father are both attorneys and they actually have had a quite a few cases in which police illegally raided peoples homes...one is on camera and my brother said it is a huge deal, although marijuana was found the police raid was completly illegal and as such the police are being sued.

They are PI attorneys as you can tell.

kimNanthony Posted:

Re: Constitutional Discussion


Posted by lizzie217


.



I am was just kidding. I am a lawyer and supporter of constitutional rights so this is very interesting (and troublesome to me). It just seems that when there is a law and an exception is created, little by little the exception starts to become a law. So the problem is where will this stop? All the police officers have to do it lie and say they did not act maliciously and just 'happened to find the evidence.'


My brother and father are both attorneys and they actually have had a quite a few cases in which police illegally raided peoples homes...one is on camera and my brother said it is a huge deal, although marijuana was found the police raid was completly illegal and as such the police are being sued.

They are PI attorneys as you can tell.






Yea unfortunately this happens a lot more often than it should
Butterfly123 Posted:

Re: Constitutional Discussion

Im not for this at all. I dont care how guilty the person is. It is illegal to search without a warrant. This would give crooked cops ammunition to go searching whoever they want.

kimNanthony Posted:

Re: Constitutional Discussion


Posted by Songstress

Im not for this at all. I dont care how guilty the person is. It is illegal to search without a warrant. This would give crooked cops ammunition to go searching whoever they want.



Exactly! I feel the same exact way. Unfortunately there are already a lot of crooked cops and this law is going to allow the illegally obtained evidence they found to be admissible.

I am not a supporter of criminals but people are guaranteed certain rights by the Constitution, guilty or not, and they are slowly being taken away.
Butterfly123 Posted:

Re: Constitutional Discussion


Posted by kimNanthony


Posted by Songstress

Im not for this at all. I dont care how guilty the person is. It is illegal to search without a warrant. This would give crooked cops ammunition to go searching whoever they want.



Exactly! I feel the same exact way. Unfortunately there are already a lot of crooked cops and this law is going to allow the illegally obtained evidence they found to be admissible.

I am not a supporter of criminals but people are guaranteed certain rights by the Constitution, guilty or not, and they are slowly being taken away.



Exactly. We cant just take a constitutional right and say 'yes,this is your right' and then have conditions to that right. Its hypocritical....' thats a crock.
lizzie217 Posted:

Re: Constitutional Discussion

You always hear about the GUILTY ones, but all the people illegally searched with nothing on them NO ONE hears about.My students used to tell me everyday (when I worked in the inner city) about illegal searches, brutality...no one could care less....Sharpton not even (he only cares when it involves spot light or $$) it is so sad how many people are profilied and treated unfairly.

Butterfly123 Posted:

Re: Constitutional Discussion


Posted by lizzie217

You always hear about the GUILTY ones, but all the people illegally searched with nothing on them NO ONE hears about.My students used to tell me everyday (when I worked in the inner city) about illegal searches, brutality...no one could care less....Sharpton not even (he only cares when it involves spot light or $$) it is so sad how many people are profilied and treated unfairly.



Yup. My husband has been a victim of a brutal search where he was pushed around and threatened to be punched in his face. He was profiled for being the only white guy in Washington Heights, so he MUST HAVE been up there buying drugs. Ive had friends who were assaulted verbally and physically by cops. This angers me
kimNanthony Posted:

Re: Constitutional Discussion


Posted by Songstress


Posted by kimNanthony


Posted by Songstress

Im not for this at all. I dont care how guilty the person is. It is illegal to search without a warrant. This would give crooked cops ammunition to go searching whoever they want.



Exactly! I feel the same exact way. Unfortunately there are already a lot of crooked cops and this law is going to allow the illegally obtained evidence they found to be admissible.

I am not a supporter of criminals but people are guaranteed certain rights by the Constitution, guilty or not, and they are slowly being taken away.



Exactly. We cant just take a constitutional right and say 'yes,this is your right' and then have conditions to that right. Its hypocritical....' thats a crock.



It was a right until a couple of days ago. They had a black and white rule saying that anything obtained from an illegal search was inadmissible in court no matter WHAT. Now they came up with a new rule using a sliding scale. Once an exception is created it creates all sorts of problems. Every judge can interpret this exception differently, and the exception will start off limited at first and then grow.

Before you know it police will be able to search a person for no reason at all. Even though I have nothing to hide, I do not want the police to be able to search me and invade my privacy, no matter what the reason.

This is putting way too much power in the hands of police.
Butterfly123 Posted:

Re: Constitutional Discussion


Posted by kimNanthony


Posted by Songstress


Posted by kimNanthony


Posted by Songstress

Im not for this at all. I dont care how guilty the person is. It is illegal to search without a warrant. This would give crooked cops ammunition to go searching whoever they want.



Exactly! I feel the same exact way. Unfortunately there are already a lot of crooked cops and this law is going to allow the illegally obtained evidence they found to be admissible.

I am not a supporter of criminals but people are guaranteed certain rights by the Constitution, guilty or not, and they are slowly being taken away.



Exactly. We cant just take a constitutional right and say 'yes,this is your right' and then have conditions to that right. Its hypocritical....' thats a crock.



It was a right until a couple of days ago. They had a black and white rule saying that anything obtained from an illegal search was inadmissible in court no matter WHAT. Now they came up with a new rule using a sliding scale. Once an exception is created it creates all sorts of problems. Every judge can interpret this exception differently, and the exception will start off limited at first and then grow.

Before you know it police will be able to search a person for no reason at all. Even though I have nothing to hide, I do not want the police to be able to search me and invade my privacy, no matter what the reason.

This is putting way too much power in the hands of police.


I agree with you one hundred percent
lizzie217 Posted:

Re: Constitutional Discussion

QUOTE]

Yup. My husband has been a victim of a brutal search where he was pushed around and threatened to be punched in his face. He was profiled for being the only white guy in Washington Heights, so he MUST HAVE been up there buying drugs. Ive had friends who were assaulted verbally and physically by cops. This angers me

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