QOTD for Thursday - posted a little early ;-)

So many posts on this topic have had me thinking quite a bit, especially because DH and I discussed all of this at such unbelieveable length before we were married. So, here goes...and it will probably be controversial so lets be adult about it ladies and keep it on the debate level!

**Why do so many brides and grooms feel they want to bend the rules of their churches/temples (et al) to suit their own needs?**

Examples:

-Requesting ceremonies outside when it's not sanctioned by the church.
-Requesting certain portions of mass/jewish ceremonies be left out, or included, to 'keep it short' even if it compromises the sanctity of these rituals.
-Seeking annulments for the sole purpose of being married in a church again.

Part 2:
Why do you think it's still so important to people to have their ceremonies in a house of worship...if they don't want to follow the rules?

I know the answers seem simple...but it all goes pretty deep I think!

I am certain this topic will branch off into a millllllliiiooon directions...it's pretty open ended.

Go!




ETA: I know this topic will **** a few people off...but realize I am NOT talking about any posters specifically...but MULTITUDES of posts, and FRIENDS of mine that have brought these subjects up...so please...don't anyone take offense because none is intended!

Re: QOTD for Thursday - posted a little early ;-)

Alright, Misty...I'll take your bait

For me personally, I always wanted to get married in the Catholic church - I was raised in a household that observed every religious holiday and kept Sundays as a day of worship. I attended Catholic school my whole life, and often found the church and my own personal faith to be a comfort in my life, especially during trying times.

I am the first to admit that I do have some 'issue' with certain rules of the church - rules that I feel are hypocritical. I don't know many Catholics who don't feel this way. I think it is very sad, but the church has not really evolved in the same way society has, and that is where I think most of the disparities lie.

All this being said, I still always knew that my marriage would be a very important sacrament in my life, and it HAD to be held inside the church. As luck would have it, I fell in love w/a man who does not belong to any religion - his parents chose not to endoctrinate him into any faith - and this presented a big problem for me while I was planning. Converting to Catholicism was just not an option for my DH and I respected that.

Thank goodness my priest was understanding, and agreed (after speaking w/my DH one-on-one about how he does define his religious beliefs) to marry us in the church.

But, this still did not solve the issue for me. And this was not about 'bending the rules to suit me.' I believed that the marriage ceremony had to be about BOTH of us -> NOT just ME. So, I *chose* to just have the marriage rite, and not a full Catholic mass, b/c my DH (and most of his family) would have been very uncomfortable during communion and that would NOT be fair to him (or them) on his wedding day. I felt that I made a mature and loving compromise for my husband and my in-laws. And, I do not think FOR ONE SECOND that the choice to omit communion from my wedding ceremony somehow 'compromised the sanctity' of my marriage. I don't think that was a fair statement, but that's JMO.

Regarding annulments, I don't think it's fair to say what another person's right is to have a bad, abusive or unhappy marriage stricken from church records. Things happen. Sometimes people are not who they portrayed themselves to be prior to marriage, and if the other spouse wants to move on with a second marriage someday (and have that second union recognized by the church) than that should be their right as a baptized Catholic - regardless of their reasons. JMO.

I don't really know how to answer the Part 2 of your question....I think it's a very individual decision and I can't address it with a broad statement.

Re: QOTD for Thursday - posted a little early ;-)

It does seem pretty simple from my perspective. I think it comes down to wanting the tradition of religion without necessarily buying into all the religious beliefs.

So, for tradition, or for family, or for god's blessing / sacrament, you get married in a church, temple, etc. But the couple also wants to personalize the ceremony so its about them, and not just any cookie cutter ceremony.

I know when I was planning our ceremony, I had a very hard time finding readings that didn't have passages on guilt, fearing god, and obeying/serving my husband. These sentiments were not things I wanted expressed at my ceremony of love.

The 'church' has not progressed with the times, and its antiquated rules isolate. Also individual churches have a lot of restictions - no petals, no candles, photographer can only take pictures form here, music and reading restrictions, sit here,, stand there, etc. - its very regimented. In some cases its so strict that its impossible to find something that isn't against the rules.

I don't think there's anything wrong with questioning the church or personalizing your religious worship. I certainly don't believe a lot of what the church preaches, but I take what I want from the rituals. I don't think it needs to be all or nothing.

Re: QOTD for Thursday - posted a little early ;-)

For me, it was not important at all to involve the church. The God I believe in does not care if I have my marriage performed in a church, parking garage or supermarket. I honestly believe the Catholic church has made such rules to fill their coffers with cash as opposed to fufilling any holy obligation.

And the process of finding a church to be married in just reaffirmed my belief that most churches and priests today do not care about the religious life of their parishoners - just to get as much money out of them as possible. 9 of the 10 churches we spoke to asked only about our ability to pay their fees and donate money - only ONE asked us about our religious beliefs and how we plan on incorporating that into our marriage!

However, my husband really wanted to be married in a church b/c its something he had always imagined when thinking of his wedding. And since marriage is all about compromise, I agree to have the ceremony in a church provided that the church was not overly strict in adhering to rules I consider arbitrary.

Re: QOTD for Thursday - posted a little early ;-)

I'm going to keep this short because I have very strong feelings on this topic : ).

I was brought up a strict Roman Catholic. As I have gotten older there are a few 'rules' I think are outdated and hypocritical. Over the years and through 2 marriages I have seen most priests be more interested in how much money I can bring to the church rather that what I can spiritually give to the church. To answer your questions.... : )

1) I do not believe that a wedding needs to be taken place inside a church. I was taught growing up that the world is God's church so why should getting married outside be out of the rules?

2) There are many readings in the Church that I do not agree with but that doesn't mean that my faith is any less. If I do not beleive in the readings why would I want them said at my wedding?. A church should be providing their members a meanful and spiritual wedding ceremony and not be worried about the correct about of readings being said or how many hymns are sung.

3) Annulments...hmmm. Well as I said I was previously married and was married in a church with full mass. My ex and I thought long and hard about getting divorced and for reasons I will not get into here, divorce was our only option. That decison was very hard on me and my family and the church shunned me. Just because I could not stay with my ex doesn't mean I beleive any less in God. That was the time the Church should have embraced me but sadly that was not the case.

As I was getting married again my DH would have loved to be married in a church since he is very religous. After many mean and hurtful talks with the priest it all came down to was money. It was like ok if you pay us we'll take you back. If you don't we don't want you. The whole annulment process has really changed my way of thinking about the church. So basically they are telling me that the priests that molest children and the priest that got drunk before the ceremony at my first wedding and fell asleep during a hymn is a better catholic that I am. I don't think so.

Sorry to get off on a tangent and to get back to the original question. For me I was not seeking to get an annulment solely to get married in a Church. I wanted to be married before God. It didn't matter if it was in a Church or not but due to the 'rules' God only sees weddings inside a Church.

Whew I guess that wasn't short but that's my opinion

Re: QOTD for Thursday - posted a little early ;-)

While I was raised Catholic and still consider myself to be Catholic, my idea of God is very different than what the Catholic religion tells me God is about.

My God doesn't care where the heck I get married. It bothered me that the Church made up a rule that said a marriage held outside the church is not valid in the eyes of God. Who says? God himself? Um, okay, so who did God actually TELL this to??? Give me a break. It's a man made rule, just like no meat on fridays during lent, and that divorce is a 'sin.'

Jesus was baptized outside. He preached in gardens and squares and roadways. Was he less holy or less recognized in God's eyes?? I don't think so. So what the heck does it matter where I am when I say my vows??

Maybe there's someone who got married in the church, like a good Catholic should. What if they are in a less honest or sincere relationship with their spouse?? What if they are abusive to each other?? What if they are hypocrites who treat others like crap. Is their union more holy, more blessed and more recognized by God than mine, simply because of WHERE they were when they said their vows?? I don't think so.

I got married outside the church and had a beautiful, loving, holy ceremony. I may not follow all the Catholic rules, but I am a good person, with good intentions, and treat others with honesty and kindness. I may not go to church on Sunday, but my behavior, how I live my life, every day of the week more than makes up for it.

I'm glad I didn't have the limits the church wanted to impose on me (no rose petals, photographer restrictions, approved readings). I don't regret it a single minute, and I feel my marriage is very blessed and very 'recognized' in the eyes of who I call God.

I did what was best for me, and what was TRUE to the feelings in my heart. Getting married in a church for me would have been hypocritical.

Re: QOTD for Thursday - posted a little early ;-)

I was raied to be jewish.. but not religious... we celebrate the Holidays as a family and we did not go to temple..( but i will be joining when I have children) But as a family we always celerated the holidays as a family. Mitch's family was the same was except that he was BAr Mitzxah'd and I was not...But becuae Mitch was the first of his family to get married his mother really wanted us to get married in a temple ...So started out Journey to find one that would not cost our parents a fortune...( I waslucky that both parents split it right down the middle ..but we were on a strict budget..)I was planning on getting married at MErrick Jewish center... but the caterer left and went to temple judea... this is where my sister got married 5 years prior to me.. in the same month.
Now on to your questions about changing he rules...
In the jewish religion it depends on the Rabbi and it depends on how religious you are and also if the temple is Reform or conservative or conservative leaning towrds Orthodox...My ceremony was simple and i did not do some of the jewish customs( the bedekken-, the circling, or have my cocktail hour first...) I had a beautiful ceremony under a beautiful chuppah and i sadi my vows to my DH in english and in hebrew. I feel that some of the 'traditional ' things in a jewish cermony are not what I truly believe in.. IMO...my rabbi gave us choice and let us have our cermony our way....

Re: QOTD for Thursday - posted a little early ;-)

I knew this would be a cool discussion. I'm learning quite a bit!

Claud, I should explain that when I said 'compromised the sanctity of these rituals' I in no way shape or form meant 'compromise the sanctity of marriage'. I simply meant that removing certain portions of a mass, or asking to include certain things in ceremony that can and should only be done during a mass may take away from the purpose of those things that you chose to include or not include. Again..I should say that I am speaking in general terms here and this is NOT totally reflective of my opinions on the subject.

I feel the sanctity in a marriage comes from the simple fact that you are committing to a lifetime with a person.

Re: QOTD for Thursday - posted a little early ;-)

My religion has played a major role in my life. Luckily for me, both my husband and I are greek orthodox and were brought up on the same beliefs. It was very important for us to have a traditional ceremony in our church and so we did.

As for others who choose to get married outside of the church, I see nothing wrong with it as long as everyone is comfortable with the decision they make.

Re: QOTD for Thursday - posted a little early ;-)

For me, it was a bit easier, because my church is pretty liberal to begin with....DH was raised Catholic, but he's not practicing so we were married in my church (protestant).

I knew I wanted my ceremony to be in the church I grew up in, even though I'm not very religious, but I do have very fond memories from my childhood. I wanted to have the ceremony in a church because of tradition - pure and simple. This sounds stupid, but I knew that if I had an outdoor ceremony, it wouldn't feel 'real' to me - not sure why, but I guess that's where the tradition part came in! Meanwhile, my sister had a beautiful outdoor ceremony, and she wouldn't have had it any other way.

During the planning process, I remember thinking about how long the ceremony would take, and wondering if I could cut out a few parts to speed it along - I'm glad we didn't even suggest this, as it REALLY would have offended our priest and the ceremony really is what you're celebrating that day. Ours wasn't too long to begin with (no mass) and it was a beautiful, meaningful, sweet service.


I think many others need to 'bend the rules' because IMO the rules are a little outdated and may no longer apply to this day and age. My church didn't have any specific rules that I know of, so I wasn't forced to make any decisions on how to adjust to our needs, etc.

Another reason may be that many are just getting caught up in the entire planning process of the whole day, and some might lose sight on what they're really celebrating - or what the day is really all about. If it's about a religious ceremony, then that should be the most important event that day. If it's not, the reception is usually the focal point, and the celebration of uniting together. I guess it just differs for each couple.

Re: QOTD for Thursday - posted a little early ;-)

I really like this questions, Misty.

I am Catholic and although I had a very traditional ceremony and did marry another Catholic, my church drove me insane with their crazy rules and changing their minds. (Where are you JennRenee??).

It doesn't bother me that I had to get married in the church, because I wanted to, but I have an issue with a rule that requires a Catholic marriage to be performed inside of a church when the church charges you money as well. My church was by far my worst vendor. They wont even let anyone take pictures inside the church. As soon as you are done they kick you out and lock the door behind you I didn't want the church to bend any of the rules that involved the actual marriage ceremony, but I was very put off by the 'man made' rules (ie., those that are not in the bible, but made up by the church administrators).

On the issue of annulments, I don't think they are easy to get. I have a friend who had her marriage annuled after she found out within the first six months of her marriage that her husband had been cheating on her before and after they got married. I think those are the kind of situations that annulments were created for and they do serve a purpose beyond bending the rules.

Re: QOTD for Thursday - posted a little early ;-)

Here I am Becky! And DITTO to everything you said about the church. It was the 'man made' rules that p*ssed me off as well.

As far as the ceremony, the only rule I would have liked to have bent was to use some secular music during the it. Nothing over the top, but there are some songs that I thought were appropriate for a Catholic ceremony that were not allowed because they were not 'religious'. I want to know who decides what's religious and what's not, because I used 2 songs that the church allowed, and while one DID in fact make reference to God, I didn't think either were particularly religious.

Re: QOTD for Thursday - posted a little early ;-)

You know, it's so strange. A recurring theme in all of these posts is the hatred of all the 'man-made' rules. And it's funny, because these rules don't apply for all churches/temples. The church that DH and I went through for Pre-Cana, as well as the musicians we hired from that church, were permitted to use secular music that was appropriate. Also, a lot of Rabbi's turned us down flat when I said I refused to answer questions regarding my future children's upbringing as a prerequisite to him marrying us. But another said 'that's not my business' and was glad to marry us. Some churchs allow photo opportunities, some don't....some temples don't allow that either...some do.

There is a tremendous amount of contradiction in place in many of these institutions, which is I guess at the heart of this discussion. Why shouldn't people want to make their own rules when it seems the Church/Temples do it themselves?

Re: QOTD for Thursday - posted a little early ;-)

Although I was raised Catholic I do not consider myself Catholic anymore- DH isn't anything- never baptized... but he would be Christian if he was because that's what his family is.

I've been thinking about this all morning- and there are two main reasons why we didn't get married in the church.

1) We don't go to church. Why would we arbitrarily pick a religion to get married in... My father married my Step Mom in a Protestant church (they are both RC but it was his 3rd marriage)... it's not their religion- I sort of think that's a little stupid- If in their thinking God is in every church- than doesn't that sort of negate different religions? Why go to RC then- why not go to a different church every week. Just weird to me. Of course my Father said, 'get married in any church- just get married in a church'.. I said to him, 'Dude, if God's in all those churches, he can be in the Carlyle too- no big deal for him since he is omnipotent'

2) The vows DH and I made are vows we made to each other... If there was no one to marry us, no one to witness, no family there and even say there was no God- they are still important to us... Church or no- to us, it was all about the vows, and nothing else.

Re: QOTD for Thursday - posted a little early ;-)

Being that both DH and I are atheists...the decision was very simple for us...

While both of our extended families are Christian...it played little to no role in our lives growing up...with the exception of Santa Claus...which isn't even a Christian symbol...I didn't even know who Jesus was until I was about 13...I just knew when I heard my dad say his name...i should get out of his way

although I did notice a lot of the struggle my sister went through...my sister chose religion, even though my parents are not...she chose Presbyterian since that was where we were baptised (We were baptised only b/c that is what my mothers family expected of her) and when my sister went to that Church and set a wedding day...they told her 3 months before the marriage that maybe it was better that she didn't get married there!! How could a Church do that to someone...Since my BIL was Catholic they went to his Church and they were very accepting of my sister...even when they asked the question about children, they accepted her answer that she would not interfere if her husband wanted to raise them Catholic...


but I think in their situation...there would be every reason to run from the Church...and I think thats a reason many people do...