Any lawyers or law students????

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Posted by jellybean1420

I am hoping someone may be able to give me some good advice. I graduated in 2003 and after thinking about it long and hard I think I may want to go to law school. The idea of how much $$$$ it costs is soooooooo scary to me and than the idea that after spending all that money I may not pass the bar exam. I know this is probably how alot of people feel, but was everyone else this scared at first. Its a huge decision b/c I am getting married next June and I feel like starting our lives will kind of be on hold for alittle while. How many times have you all taken the bar before you passed? If you dont pass the bar right away, what kind of jobs can you even get? How much are your student loans a month? Thanks for your help guys!

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I'll chime in but the answers will vary greatly!!!

I know this is probably how alot of people feel, but was everyone else this scared at first?

No I was not scared at all. I always knew I was going to law school and I had a silver gavel on a chain from like age 13. I was pre- law in college, took every class offered plus did mock trials whenever they came up. Some of my professors were really helpful in that area. We did NITA mock trials as part of one class. We each played lawyer, juror & witness for various cases that semester

How many times have you all taken the bar before you passed?

once (NY & NJ same time) then got into DC & Fed Circuit plus District court admissions but those did not require exams.

If you dont pass the bar right away, what kind of jobs can you even get?

I had a federal clerkship Second Circuit Court of Appeals and then went to a private firm so I am not sure what jobs there are for first year lawyers other than firms & clerkships. You won't know if you passed the bar by the time you start a job. Results for the July bar come out in November and jobs start in August or September typically. This assumes you summered during law school and got a permanent offer and are not taking a year deferred to do a clerkship.

How much are your student loans a month?
This is where the huge variation comes in. My loans are not much but 'not much' to me is probably different from others depending on the salary. If I was still clerking I would say my loan payments were average in comparison to salary. I had some scholarship money and I did not use loan money to pay my bills while in law school - only tuition. I also summered after 1st year & after 2nd year at a top tier private law firm and I had a full-time internship with a federal judge during law school.

It's a huge committment of time & money so if you decide to do it - Good luck


ETA - I am a bit removed from law school and have been working for over 5 years. The new grads and current student have better perspective.

The bar exam was not difficult and there are several courses that you take over the summer (they start right as school ends) to prepare you for the exam. I finished NY's multistate at least 45 minutes early for both sessions but I also timed myself all summer on at least 50 mock exams and I never missed a prep class - even when family was in town for graduation.

I'm a lawyer in CA. I wouldn't worry too much about passing or not passing the bar. The bar is just one last test after three years of tests.

I would think about if you even want to be a lawyer. I made the mistake of going to law school w/o really knowing what the practice of law entails. Enduring 3 years of law school is not worth the time, expense, and/or grief of the first year, if you are not sure you want to be a lawyer. Not to mention, how difficult it is to endure if you are constantly thinking, 'Why am I here? What am I doing?'

Luckily, I found what I like to do, but only after 1.5 years of hell and self-doubt.

I would suggest that you paralegal and/or volunteer at a law firm or non profit legal organization, before you decide if you want to go to law school and become a lawyer. I wouldn't spend the money and or time preparing for the LSAT, applying to law schools, and paying tuition without knowing for sure that you want to be lawyer. Remember, law school is just a means to an end.

Also check out: www.jdjive.com. It's a chatroom for law school students. Good luck!

I wasn't so much scared about whether to go, but I was scared about what it'd be like. The loans are a lot, I can't lie about that, but I figured lawyers make good $ so eventually they'll get paid back, and government loans have really great rates so it's not as scary as you think. But you hear horror stories about what it's like. And it was hard - law school was rough the first semester, and the bar exam was rough too, but most things that are worthwhile are not easy so I think it goes with the territory. Law school's hard at first because they're simultaneously teaching you substance (the law) and a new way to think and write and analyze, so until you figure out the latter, the former just doesn't make sense. But it ends up OK because when you go back to study before exams, you are actually able to put it all together and it makes sense. Also, some professors can be scary - they'll question you for an hour and that can be scary - but not everyone does it, and now that I've experienced it, I'm convinced it's the best way to learn - they're really pushing you when they do that. As for the bar exam, it was stressful - but studying was more stressful than the test itself because it's such an unknown. Don't get me wrong, the test was hard, but I had built it up to be much worse than it was (or at least so I think not having results yet). I took it this July - I don't know if I passed yet, but I have a job (this is my 3rd week of work), and if I fail, the policy is to give you at least one (possibly two) more chance. So far, I really like what I do, even though I'm in an entirely different area of law than what I thought I wanted to do when I started. I'm glad I went and I think it's worth it. You work hard, but you get rewards too, and there are lots of different areas to go into, so you have lots of options. I don't think you're closing any doors by going anyway.

If I had one piece of advice for you, it would be about picking law schools - go to the best school you can get yourself into. Take Kaplan if you need to (for the LSAT). But go, even if it's more expensive, even if they're not offering you any money. I know going in it's hard to see the benefits, but you reap awards on the way out in terms of finding a job - it's just easier if your career office has more contacts and more sway. It cost me a lot more to go because I turned down a scholarship, but it paid off.

Please, if you have any questions, don't hesitate to FM me.

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Posted by aim325

I'm a lawyer in CA. I wouldn't worry too much about passing or not passing the bar. The bar is just one last test after three years of tests.

I would think about if you even want to be a lawyer. I made the mistake of going to law school w/o really knowing what the practice of law entails. Enduring 3 years of law school is not worth the time, expense, and/or grief of the first year, if you are not sure you want to be a lawyer. Not to mention, how difficult it is to endure if you are constantly thinking, 'Why am I here? What am I doing?'

Luckily, I found what I like to do, but only after 1.5 years of hell and self-doubt.

I would suggest that you paralegal and/or volunteer at a law firm or non profit legal organization, before you decide if you want to go to law school and become a lawyer. I wouldn't spend the money and or time preparing for the LSAT, applying to law schools, and paying tuition without knowing for sure that you want to be lawyer. Remember, law school is just a means to an end.

Also check out: www.jdjive.com. It's a chatroom for law school students. Good luck!

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I couldnt agree with this more!!!

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Posted by aim325



I would think about if you even want to be a lawyer. I made the mistake of going to law school w/o really knowing what the practice of law entails. Enduring 3 years of law school is not worth the time, expense, and/or grief of the first year, if you are not sure you want to be a lawyer. Not to mention, how difficult it is to endure if you are constantly thinking, 'Why am I here? What am I doing?'

Luckily, I found what I like to do, but only after 1.5 years of hell and self-doubt.

I would suggest that you paralegal and/or volunteer at a law firm or non profit legal organization, before you decide if you want to go to law school and become a lawyer. I wouldn't spend the money and or time preparing for the LSAT, applying to law schools, and paying tuition without knowing for sure that you want to be lawyer. Remember, law school is just a means to an end.

Also check out: www.jdjive.com. It's a chatroom for law school students. Good luck!

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I agree. Definately try to be a paralegal first, my friend did that and she is now a music teacher!

Ok so from someone who has always wanted to be a lawyer since I could first speak, I have often regretted all the work and loans it took to get here, so don't do it unless you're sure. But that having been said the bar was not insurmountable. I passed first time. The loans are exorbitant for me. I made a huge mistake and went to a private school so definitely go to a state school if you can and save yourself lots of money.

I know people that did not pass the bar after several attempts and the good news is they all have jobs so you can still work even if you don't pass at first. Good luck whatever you decide. Try to work in a law office first before you go to school. it 's quite eye opening to see that most lawyers hate their work up close everyday. It definitely tests your commitment. My job in b/w college and law school was a firm where all three attorneys spent a year trying to talk me out of going to law school. Lot of good it did

I agree the bar exam is not the main thing to consider.

Law school is a HUGE time commitment. It takes a lot of time and effort. It is none the less a great education - whether you decide to practice law or not.

Getting a job after law school is tought too and nerve racking. I was lucky enough to find a good job - which i worked at the summer after my second year. A lot of my friends had jobs, a bunch didnt, and a bunch had jobs they hated.

Also, there are so many lawyers out there - and most tell you dont become a lawyer - because honestly the quote is true - lawyers are a dime a dozen.

It is something that you need to consider as a whole. Most people i know do not regret the fact that they went to lawschool and work in the legal field.

How I was going to pay for it was my second biggest concern. My first concern was figuring out if the life long dream I had was just a dream or if I was going to enjoy the reality. I volunteered at the Public Defender's Office in DC for 6 months to figure it out. After doing that kind of nitty gritty work (with the poorest of the poor being accused of the most horrific crimes) I knew that it was going to be my life long reality.

Once I figured that out I never thought about the bar exam until I had to study for it. Instead I worried about getting in to a good law school, then once I was accepted (to all but one of those I applied for) I worried about which of those to go to, then once I decided I worried about books and class schedules and all the normal things you worry about while in college. (until it's time to worry about law review - which is totally different from anything you worry about in college)

I worried about law review the summer after my first year when I worked my butt off for the competition. I almost had a heart attack when I found out I made it.

I'm sure there are other things I was concerned about along the way - but the bar exam? not until it was time to take it and everyone told me I was crazy for not taking a bar review course. That was when money really became an issue. I just didn't have it to pay. So I did it on my own, and I'm very proud to say I passed the exam on the first try without it. I will also say I don't recommend the added stress.

A lot of lawyers seem really down on their jobs, but so do a lot of doctors, and a lot of other people. To be honest, I've never heard anyone tell me you should do what I do because it's great. It is true lawyers have the highest suicide, alcoholism, and depression rates of all jobs - there are tons of articles about this. But I feel like people have taken really narrow views about what you can do with a law degree. I went into law school wanting to be a federal defender and then a judge. Admittedly, that's not what I do, at least not now, and the reason I initially took my job with a firm was for the money. My loans are a lot and I didn't want to live paycheck to paycheck. That's what my parents had to do and for me, it was incredibly important to do better - that's been my dream since I was a kid. My law school roommate took a different route - she's an ADA in Manhattan, making much less, but that's been her dream and she tried to be incredibly frugal in law school so that her loans could not keep her from her dream. She still makes pretty good money - better than what we could've earned straight out of college. But these are not the only two options you have - big firm v. government. A lot of people start with a big firm, and then go in-house or move to smaller firms where their lifestyle will be better. You can go corporate right away and go in-house too. You can work for all types of government and social service agencies and lobbying groups. You can also start with a smaller firm and have a better life, or you can start at a big firm and specialize, go into a smaller department, and have a better life earning the same as everyone else. This is what my other roommate and myself have done - we're at big firms but we've specialized and we love our jobs. You know, when I started my job search, I knew I didn't want to do corporate law or litigate at a huge NY firm. So, I went out for jobs at big national firms with branch offices in NY - you make the same money for a higher quality of life. FH does not work for a NY firm, we make the same money, and he's home by 7 every day. The mindset of big firm or poverty working for the government is inaccurate - but it takes over - a lot of my classmates thought this too, and you're really limiting yourself if you do that. And in my mind, by narrowing your options, you're setting yourself up for potentially hating what you do, without considering other, good-paying, options that might make you so much happier. But, this goes back to what I said before, you will not have these options if you don't go to a great law school. So, if you think you want to do this, get yourself into the best law school you can. And, if it's a really good one - it won't matter whether you make Law Review either.

If you're really unsure, I think it's probably a good idea to see what it's like out there - but don't limit yourself to being a paralegal at a huge firm in their corporate or litigation department - because if you think that's the only way to make money as a lawyer and you see what that's like, you won't want to be a lawyer. Although I have to say, even the big NY firms - they're not all the same - I knew people who work in several of them, and they do vary quite a bit. In any case though, you have other options, don't forget every big firm has smaller departments, and that you don't have to work in a 700-lawyer factory, or a firm at all - try out the DA's office or the public defender's office too. I volunteered for the public defender's office in college, and I loved it. I hope to still one day do this, but for now, I enjoy my job (remember, I chose my specialty and my firm very carefully) and have no plans to leave.

In sum, my point is, it doesn't have to be as bad as it can be (and it can be bad) - you just have to figure out first whether to be a lawyer at all and then figure out what you want to do as a lawyer and find a place where you can do it, make a good living, and be happy - and these places exist, but give yourself options by going to the best school you can.

As for law school itself, I loved it. I had a great time, made great friends, and met FH. Despite the hard work involved, I loved law school far more than college.

Oh, and Law Review - it's a student run legal journal. Every law school has one and it's an honor to make Law Review. Some schools do it by grades, some by writing competitions, etc. Professors publish their articles in these things and students edit and cite check them. Students can also publish in them. It's a lot of grunt work and not at all glamorous, but it is an honor, and if you want to clerk, or do certain things, it's a good idea be on Law Review. Even if you don't want to do these things, it helps to make Law Review because there's a lot of prestige associated with it.

I am a 3rd year law student right now. I'd be happy to answer any questions if you pm me.

Hey Jellybean,

I'm a lawyer - been out of law school for about 8 years now. Law school is a big decision and it will take a lot of your time, but if your new hubby is supportive you should not have a problem.

Here are some things you should think about. If you are a full time law student most law schools prohibit you from working more than 20 hours a week. If you are a part time student you can work full time, but you will graduate in 4 years instead of 3, and you go to school in the evening. I did the part time program (not all schools have one). The 4 years flew by and I loved it.

I found that the evening students were more serious and focused on school, and helped eachother out more.

I passed the bar on the first try. It's just another test - you study, spit back out the information, and you pass. If you are taking the NY Bar I would really reccommend Pieper bar review. He was great.

If you don't pass the bar you can still clerk for a judge and a lot of employers will give you at least two tries at the bar. After you graduate you can work as a lawyer for a little while you are waiting to pass the bar as long as it is under the supervision of another attorney.

LOANS:
I graduated law school with about $75,000 in loans. At first my payments were $1000 a month with a 10 year pay off schedule. I consolidated my loans and extnended the loan to a 30 year term (sounds rough buy lots of people do it). Now I pay $500 a month.

Hope this helps

my fh is an attorney. he graduated in 2004.
fm if you want his email.

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Posted by Annieb
The real issue is the $$ you will make in your first job. If you don't go to an ivy league school it is VERY difficult to get a job that pays a lot of money. I think average salaries are closer to $50,000 than $150,000 unless you graduate in the top 3 percent and are on law review. HOWEVER, if you do get into an ivy league school - you are almost guaranteed a good job.

Hope this helps and feel free to FM me.

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My brother's getting out of an ivy law school this May and was editor of the law review. He took out $50,000 in loans for a total of $150,000. He was offered a full scholarship to Duke but turned it down to go ivy. He'll be making over $200,000 his first year, BUT he already knows the hours will be horrendous and he will be giving up any social life. I wouldn't want to do that my first married year, which was hard enough. That said, he was the best at one of the best schools in the country. I have several friends who went to private schools on Long Island and can't get a job paying over $35,000, or any job law-related. I would think long and hard about whether it's what you really want. I'm sure it's doable, but it won't make your first year being married any easier with the financial concerns and time commitment.

ETA: Are you planning on having kids? You're looking at 3 years of school when you won't really have an income, plus at least a few years working to pay back loans. Say 6 years before you could really consider having kids...

You've already received a ton of good advice from the previous posts regarding the bar exam and making sure that law school is what you want. What I will add is that money won't be a problem if you end up at a big firm in a major city. You will make enough to cover your student loans and you'll be able to pay rent. However, if that's the route you choose to go, just be aware that as a junior attorney at a large firm (which is what I am), you really have no control over your hours and when you will or won't be working. I work at one of the 'nicer' firms and I am still pretty much 'on call' 24/7.

For example, I got an email at 8pm on the Monday Labor Day weekend giving me an assignment that needed to be done by 8:30 am the next day. I've had to stay at work for 26.5 hours straight with no warning that this was how my day was going to turn out. I get emails at 4am that we might be filing a brief by noon the next day and I need to be at work by 8am to get the research ready. It isn't like this all the time, but the point is that it's not for everybody. Luckily, DH and I are not even considering having kids anytime soon, but being at a big firm as a junior attorney would not be the best idea if we were.

If you need any other info, definitely FM me and good luck with your decision

To tell you the truth, I am not sure I want to work for a big firm in NYC. To me family is the most important thing. I know it is going to be hard to juggle both, but I think it is doable. I live on Long Island and would love to practice here. And I plan on working during law school, so the most convenienct law schools for me are Hofstra, St. Johns and Fordham (which is a slight hike). From what I understand, regardless of where you go to school, if you do well, make law review and have a good internship, you will get a good job. Maybe not making $150,000 to start, but that is not always reality for everyone. Many people have to pay there way through undergrad and the loans are equivalent to 3 years of law school, depending on where you go of course.

What type of law do you all practice?