How religious are you?

Also, Part of the reason i feel this way is that I am really against separatism. I think it's a really huge embedded thing and I think it keeps people from really reaching out and understanding each other. I can't really disagree with you on tha point that believing in jesus makes you not jewish, because 99% of the world thinks that. But at the same time, there's nothing else...that's maybe even bigger in terms of a big picture that is SO black and white...and I think that's at least partially due to the fact that for political or self preservation reasons, 'the jewish people' whatever that means have wanted to really separate themselves from christians... this is not everyone..but I see these insane examples of it all the time.

I know Jewish people who don't believe in angels and think they don't exist. And I don't think it's because they're ignorant, I think it's because angels have been used so much more by christians, that they seem more chirstian then jewish.

FH's cousin objected to this candle with an angel on it that FH's mom gave Fh's grandmother. And not, it wasn't on the grounds that you can't have any images or icons of creatures in heaven (which based on what i know, would be a perfectly valid reason), but it was because 'angels are not jewish'...which is totally ridiculous.

ETA: I also don't like prohibition on interfaith marriages. I understnad not wanting to because it is harder, or because you want to be with someone who shares your views, or because you want to give your children a firm foundation tat will not cnfuse them. But it bothers me immensely when it's about preserving some kind of purity, or about fear of assimilation. Some people believe you're no longer christian (though this si less true in the last 1/2 centurey) or jewish if you marry outside of your religion. I think that's ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. And I'm not saying this just b'c I'm in an interfaith realtionship. I was taking a racial and ehtnic relatios class in HS, and there was a guest panel and one of the speakers was a jewish man who said he would disown his son if he married someone who wasn't jewish, and blah blah and I ende dup arguing with the guy, and getting flamed totally for saying that it was that kind of preservationist and separatist attitude that fueled the holocaust. I'm not saying that it is GOING to cause violence...but that it IS the same concept of being separate and keeping some kind of 'pure' race.

this was a response to an Fm I got, but I believe it clarifies what I'm trying to say.

Learning about judaism actually has nothing to do with FH..but thats besides the point.

I mean it's a difficult thing to argue, but to my mind, jesus is not separate from god, so it doesn't violate the 'one god' commandment in the least.

Jews and Christians have the same ten commandments, just different ideas of what they mean.

Also, I'm different from most christians and jews in that I believe that there can only be one god, even in polytheism (and prior to the exodus jews WERE polytheists), because there is one higher power that encompasses ALL conceptions of god. I identified myself as pagan or pantheistic for many years, and I don't think that contradicts with judaism and christianity either. I believe even if you believe in many many gods and goddesses, you're still worshipping the same 'god'..and actually, in the bible god is refered to in the plural 'elohim' in several places, including I believe, Genesis 2. There's no one answer on why that is or what it means, but it suiggests to some that there are multiple gods, or that god somehow is plural.

I don't feel that I am missing the point. I understand the point completely. I just have a completely different point of view.

ANd it's not just a different point of view from the , for lack of a better description, jewish establishment, but from most people, period.

I'm not trying to say I'm right and anyone else is wrong. It's just my belief.

Ok..I need to clarify before this turns into a drama post tomorrow.

I never intended to get involed in this kind of discussion. I don't identify myself as jewish, and I'm not trying to. What it boils down to is that I don't believe that judaism and christianity can not be reconciled. Maybe it means I believe that christianity should really be like judaism plus jesus, to put it simply... or that that's how I personally want to look at it. Th main reason Igot into this was because I really did not appreciate the implication that you can not have a rich spiritual and religious life based in 2 religious backgrounds. I also didn't like implication about not 'really praying' in temple.

I'm just sort of arguing the point because I am a really avid student of the bible and religions, especially judaism, so these are things that are really on my mind.

Also, maybe I'm naive, but I believe a lot of the rift that took place was largely political ..for conversions on the aprt of the christians and for self preservation on the partof the jews..and not necessarily done for strictly religious reasons..so I don't think it needs to be that separatist..and as I was saying in the beginning, I think it's more that christianity should include much more ofr judaism, than anything to be said about broadening the scope of what judaism means, but it was just something I wanted to call the question on.

I hope that clarifies it. I know I'm really unique in my beliefs in this matter, but I want everyone to know that I have utmost respect for everyone's religious beliefs and I don't mean to offend anyone in any way or be disrespectful. I really appreciate the respect I've been shown in return for my beliefs which to me are perfectly logical, but which to others may seem quite radical.

ETA: If anyone actually likes these discussions, let me know, I am always up for a good religious discussion. I love getitng different points of view, and clarifying y views by talking to others.

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Posted by marymoon
The main reason I got into this was because I really did not appreciate the implication that you can not have a rich spiritual and religious life based in 2 religious backgrounds.

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You say this but then on your very next post you say:

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Posted by marymoon

I don't feel that I am missing the point. I understand the point completely. I just have a completely different point of view...

I'm not trying to say I'm right and anyone else is wrong. It's just my belief.

---

Sometimes you need to understand that other people are are not trying to say they are right or they are wrong either.
I believe you are particularly calling ME out when you say 'because I really did not appreciate the implication that you can not have a rich spiritual and religious life based in 2 religious backgrounds'
If you look at my posts I speficially put *I think* because it is in fact what I THINK!
Not everyone needs a lesson in Catholicism, Christianity and Judiasm to come up with their own thoughts as to what makes someone religious.
To be honest, I found your posts a bit condescending and sometimes hypocritcal...I can appreciate that you believe whatever you want to believe, irregardless of how 'radical' YOU may think it is, but don't hide behind the statement 'It's just my belief' and not extend the same courtesy to your fellow posters.

Firstly, it is my opinion that the history of religion is very rich and full of ideas and prophecies that people some choose to follow. The basic fundamentals of all religions are to love honor and respect your fellow man and G-d. It is a very personal thing.

Secondly, on a more direct addressed issue, under no circumstances did I say or imply that one CANNOT have a 'rich and spiritual life based in two religions' That is certainly a possibility, it is just not MY way of life or that of my brother's wife.

As for self preservation of the Jews, I think it is perfectly justified. After thousands of years of slavery way before, and including the time of Moses and the more modern form of annihilation, namely the Holocaust, there is nothing wrong with wanting to perpetuate a religion, faith and/or culture that is seriously in danger of dying out. As long as it does not alienate people of other faiths, I don't see it as an issue. I find it fascinating that so many people are threatened by our need for self preservation. The percentage of Jewish people in the country is minimal at best and all over the world is even less. It is not seen when you live in densely populated areas in the Northeast, Florida or possibly California - mainly coastal cities.

I am not a Jew who goes to shul every weekend. I am not a Jew who keeps kosher. I am a Jew who was raised in a Jewish home with basic Jewish ideals, customs and faith. It was not imposed on me, it was a choice. My parents did not ask me to go to Hebrew school. I wanted to go. They were in no position to teach me anything past Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Chanukah and Pesach. It was my responsibility to learn. It was also my conclusion that it was my responsibility to perpetuate my faith by having and raising Jewish children. This does NOT make me or any other Jew who feels this way a 'separatist.' Prejudice and separatism comes when one views themselves as better or more worthy than another. I do not see myself that way. Having Jewish children is MY duty.

It is admirable to learn and study about other cultures and faiths. It makes a person well rounded and more informed. And you are right, there is no black and white. I will say this however, IN MY OPINION to study a religion or faith is not the same as being born and raised. It is a different feeling. I also took relgion courses in college and a handful of Judaism courses as well - almost 10 years after I became a Bat Mitzvah. And yes, the Catholic kidsi n the class did much better than the Jewish ones. Why? Because they accepted everything as it was written without question. The Jewish students didn't. As Pesach approaches, remember the part of the seder with the 4 sons. It was the WISE son who asked the question 'WHY?'

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Posted by marymoon

ETA: I also don't like prohibition on interfaith marriages. I understnad not wanting to because it is harder, or because you want to be with someone who shares your views, or because you want to give your children a firm foundation tat will not cnfuse them. But it bothers me immensely when it's about preserving some kind of purity, or about fear of assimilation. Some people believe you're no longer christian (though this si less true in the last 1/2 centurey) or jewish if you marry outside of your religion. I think that's ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. And I'm not saying this just b'c I'm in an interfaith realtionship. I was taking a racial and ehtnic relatios class in HS, and there was a guest panel and one of the speakers was a jewish man who said he would disown his son if he married someone who wasn't jewish, and blah blah and I ende dup arguing with the guy, and getting flamed totally for saying that it was that kind of preservationist and separatist attitude that fueled the holocaust. I'm not saying that it is GOING to cause violence...but that it IS the same concept of being separate and keeping some kind of 'pure' race.

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I feel the need to address the intermarriage-assimilation thing. I do not feel it's a matter of maintaining purity, but rather, that the fact of the matter is that the more people who intermarry, the less children are brought up Jewish. This does lead to a decrease in the number of Jewish people, specifically in the Reform and Conservative movements. I'm not saying that children of parents who intermarried will never be raised Jewish, but they very often aren't. As a people, we do need to preserve our religion, and this is why intermarriage is frowned upon. However, I do not believe in disowning your child if they choose to marry out of the faith. Incidentally, after I married brad, my mom and dad finally admitted to me that while they would have been very unhappy if I had married someone who wasn't Jewish, they would not have disowned me...good to know now!

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Posted by lilmrs

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Posted by marymoon
The main reason I got into this was because I really did not appreciate the implication that you can not have a rich spiritual and religious life based in 2 religious backgrounds.

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You say this but then on your very next post you say:

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Posted by marymoon

I don't feel that I am missing the point. I understand the point completely. I just have a completely different point of view...

I'm not trying to say I'm right and anyone else is wrong. It's just my belief.

---

Sometimes you need to understand that other people are are not trying to say they are right or they are wrong either.
I believe you are particularly calling ME out when you say 'because I really did not appreciate the implication that you can not have a rich spiritual and religious life based in 2 religious backgrounds'
If you look at my posts I speficially put *I think* because it is in fact what I THINK!
Not everyone needs a lesson in Catholicism, Christianity and Judiasm to come up with their own thoughts as to what makes someone religious.
To be honest, I found your posts a bit condescending and sometimes hypocritcal...I can appreciate that you believe whatever you want to believe, irregardless of how 'radical' YOU may think it is, but don't hide behind the statement 'It's just my belief' and not extend the same courtesy to your fellow posters.

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You just made no sense. You said I shouldn't hide behind the phrase 'I belive' when yoy said something I found insulting and disrespectful and kept saying 'I think' as though that makes it better.

and the 'missing the point' I should ahve deleted because t was in response to an FM I got saying I was 'missing the point' on Jewish monotheism.

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Posted by marymoon

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Posted by lilmrs

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Posted by marymoon
The main reason I got into this was because I really did not appreciate the implication that you can not have a rich spiritual and religious life based in 2 religious backgrounds.

---

You say this but then on your very next post you say:

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Posted by marymoon

I don't feel that I am missing the point. I understand the point completely. I just have a completely different point of view...

I'm not trying to say I'm right and anyone else is wrong. It's just my belief.

---

Sometimes you need to understand that other people are are not trying to say they are right or they are wrong either.
I believe you are particularly calling ME out when you say 'because I really did not appreciate the implication that you can not have a rich spiritual and religious life based in 2 religious backgrounds'
If you look at my posts I speficially put *I think* because it is in fact what I THINK!
Not everyone needs a lesson in Catholicism, Christianity and Judiasm to come up with their own thoughts as to what makes someone religious.
To be honest, I found your posts a bit condescending and sometimes hypocritcal...I can appreciate that you believe whatever you want to believe, irregardless of how 'radical' YOU may think it is, but don't hide behind the statement 'It's just my belief' and not extend the same courtesy to your fellow posters.

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You just made no sense. You said I shouldn't hide behind the phrase 'I belive' when yoy said something I found insulting and disrespectful and kept saying 'I think' as though that makes it better.

and the 'missing the point' I should ahve deleted because t was in response to an FM I got saying I was 'missing the point' on Jewish monotheism.

---

It makes sense, you rip into anyone who has a different belief. But when someone comes back at you, you just say it's my belief! All I am saying is understand things are my belief and that is why in my posts I kept saying this is what **I THINK** to show that I am not trying to win an arguement or sway people.

I am done with this now. In all honesty, I dont care about what you believe in, I am sorry but I just don't. You believe what you want and I will believe what I want and life will go on.

I don't know if I said this earlier ina post, byt mt 'pure race' thing comes not from a generalization, but from a conversation I had with an orthodox person 6 or 7 years ago. He seriously angered me, He kept talking about preserving the purity of the chosen people. It made me sick. That's how people get killed. it just is.

And the whole concept of somehow the jewish religion is going to disappear, I don't understand it. I was not raised jewish, I don't have that fear. There's also the other side of the coin, the people who believe that the more people intermarry the more people are brought into the folds of judaism.

I wasn't sayi g the viewpoint I disagreed with was the viewpoint of all jewish people, or that ALL viewpoints againt assimilation and intermarriage were the same as this one, or that they were all bad. It was THIS one that I really didn't like. 'preserving racial purity' sounds like hitler to me, and that's not something that any of us like to think about.

And to address some other things... I've been having extensive conversations with a close frined of mine who is orthodox (but was raised conservative), and I was telling him that Doug and I joke that out of the two of us, I'm the good Jew, and he said that he doens't believe that that's a really..ok..let me quote his email..because I'll never get it right or spell the hebrew right...'People look at it on
> the surface: Jewish boy, non-Jewish girl, oy vey! But I have seen living
> proof of 'shiksas' coming from Russia to the US for the sake of citizenship,
> and marrying secular Jewish boys. Because these 'shiksas' have more respect
> for Judaism than their new husbands, they soon become more Jewish than the
> husband who was born that way! Very often, they keep kosher, observe
> Shabbos, etc. and actually bring their husbands back to G-d. So saying
> you're the good Jew is really no stretch at all. I think it has to do with
> momentum and this ties to the concept of the ba'al teshuvah. While a Jew
> already in the fold can still make progress, how much greater is the
> potential for growth for an unaffiliated Jew! It's like the spring or
> rubber band concept in physics: 1/2kx^2 (one half kx squared). The more the
> spring is compressed, the greater the jump will be'

And I wasn't even talking to him about HALF the stuff discussed on this post...just in general terms about the fact that I've been studying judaism, attended services, and trying to bring Doug back to some form of religious life.

I never would have even gotten into this argument if someone wouldn't have called it into question (and it wasn't you, goldi)

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Posted by lilmrs

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Posted by marymoon

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Posted by lilmrs

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Posted by marymoon
The main reason I got into this was because I really did not appreciate the implication that you can not have a rich spiritual and religious life based in 2 religious backgrounds.

---

You say this but then on your very next post you say:

---

Posted by marymoon

I don't feel that I am missing the point. I understand the point completely. I just have a completely different point of view...

I'm not trying to say I'm right and anyone else is wrong. It's just my belief.

---

Sometimes you need to understand that other people are are not trying to say they are right or they are wrong either.
I believe you are particularly calling ME out when you say 'because I really did not appreciate the implication that you can not have a rich spiritual and religious life based in 2 religious backgrounds'
If you look at my posts I speficially put *I think* because it is in fact what I THINK!
Not everyone needs a lesson in Catholicism, Christianity and Judiasm to come up with their own thoughts as to what makes someone religious.
To be honest, I found your posts a bit condescending and sometimes hypocritcal...I can appreciate that you believe whatever you want to believe, irregardless of how 'radical' YOU may think it is, but don't hide behind the statement 'It's just my belief' and not extend the same courtesy to your fellow posters.

---

You just made no sense. You said I shouldn't hide behind the phrase 'I belive' when yoy said something I found insulting and disrespectful and kept saying 'I think' as though that makes it better.

and the 'missing the point' I should ahve deleted because t was in response to an FM I got saying I was 'missing the point' on Jewish monotheism.

---

It makes sense, you rip into anyone who has a different belief. But when someone comes back at you, you just say it's my belief! All I am saying is understand things are my belief and that is why in my posts I kept saying this is what **I THINK** to show that I am not trying to win an arguement or sway people.

I am done with this now. In all honesty, I dont care about what you believe in, I am sorry but I just don't. You believe what you want and I will believe what I want and life will go on.

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I did NOT rip into anyone. I ahve been nothing but respectful.

I didn't like the fact that you had made an unsolicited comment on what you thought about my religious beliefs. This post was justa question 'how religious are you'.. that's all. It wasn't meant to be judged, just asked.

There's no argument to win. It's a discussion. I don't see it as an argument. That's why I didn't argue with you, I just presented ideas. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, but I believe there is a lot of growth and understanding that can come from discussing different beliefs, opinions, etc.

I never ONCE said anything anyone said on the thread was wrong, except for in the case that you can't be religious and based in 2 religions.

My children are going to have a much richer religious experience than I had, because they will have both religions in their lives, and I'm sure they'll be religious...whether they would be classified and christian or jewish is besides the point.

Also, I went back and read my original post... I don't think I claimed to be anything I'm not. I think I was VERY clear in what I meant by what I said...


Ok, to clarify..I'm catholic, but I am ALWAYS reading about judaism, and took classes in college and I really like going to services..and although [b]I'm not actually jewish[/b], I consider myself to be at least partially jewish, [b]if that's possible [/b], in that I try to study the teachings and keep the holidays and go to services on occasion. Neither of us have EVER observed shabbat though, and I'm not sure if we ever will.


I don't feel that I misrepresented anything, and I'd like to know for future reference what bothered you about that statement..


I'm being completely honest. This entire post has been in the vein of curiousity, not antagonism.

It's hard to get across on a message board, and maybe people still don't believe this about me..but I'm not about winning any arguments or changing anyone's mind, I just believe it's enriching to ahve the discussion at all.

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Posted by Jax430

Hearing the racial purity argument of the 'chosen people' would have bothered me too. I agree that that's dangerous. No one should believe that their religion or group of people is any better than any one else's. I realize now that you realize that that isn't the view point of all or most jews. I believe that the argument against intermarriage leans more toward what I explained my my last post. Oh, and I certainly don't see this conversation as an argument..I find your views very interesting and appreciate the fact that you have explored Judaism to the extent that you have. I feel that religion is a lot more meaningful when it's something you come to on your own.

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Yes... I'm glad I clafirifed that. I don't believe that that's the root of all of the arguments agsint intermarriage. But that was the first time I ever discussed intermarriage and it REALLY scared me. The 'chosen people' brings up another concept..and I know at this point I just sound like I want to be jewish or something, but it brings up the concet fo who today's chosen are. At the time when they jews were named the chosen people, muslims and christians did not exist. So, is it that the people who have remained jewish, who are today's chosen, or is it all of the people who worship the god of abraham? it's an interesting question. I honestly don't believe any group is chosen over another, we're all god's children, but the 'chosen' concept is an interesting one. I know that even in church, and in cathholic discussions there is an amount of reverence for jewish people as 'god's chosen people'. And I'm not going to argue with them, because as long as they're looking at jewish people with revrence and not hatred or saying we need to 'Save' them, it's a good thing. But I wonder who god's chosen people would do today. Does is hinge on who you believe to be the messiah, or is it just that god's chosen people are the ones who believe in him?

And this is another thought to throw into the mix of ideas.

People say the biggest and msot balck and white division between jeiwsh and not jewish is whether or not you believe in jesus.

Well, how about the belief (I'm not sure which groups believe this) that if your mother is jewish you're jewish. And this is a common belief. There is also the belief that once you are jewish you are ALWAYS jewish, even if you convert to another religion, for our sake, let';s say christianity. So in that case, you can be jewish (because you were born jewish and will always be jewish) and believe in christ (which you obviously do or you would not have converted).

And there are other things that can be called into this questions such as the jewish religion vs. the jewish ethnicity/heritage

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Posted by marymoon

I just presented ideas...

I never ONCE said anything anyone said on the thread was wrong, except for in the case that you can't be religious and based in 2 religions.

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Telling me I am wrong is not an idea. This is exactly my point! You are saying that what I think and I what a believe is wrong HOWEVER, I should respect what you believe.

I added the two religions because two religions were discussed in your first thread and it got me to thinking. You want to open things up for discussion...well you did but don't attack me for discussing it!!

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Posted by marymoon
I never would have even gotten into this argument if someone wouldn't have called it into question (and it wasn't you, goldi)

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Grow a spine and call me out by my name!

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Posted by marymoon
I don't consider myself very religious though.

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So why would you think I was calling you out on being religious with two faiths when you yourself said you are not religious.


Anyway, this thread has turned into a discussion that I can't be included in.
Have a good day everyone!

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Posted by lilmrs

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Posted by marymoon

I just presented ideas...

I never ONCE said anything anyone said on the thread was wrong, except for in the case that you can't be religious and based in 2 religions.

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Telling me I am wrong is not an idea. This is exactly my point! You are saying that what I think and I what a believe is wrong HOWEVER, I should respect what you believe.

I added the two religions because two religions were discussed in your first thread and it got me to thinking. You want to open things up for discussion...well you did but don't attack me for discussing it!!

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Posted by marymoon
I never would have even gotten into this argument if someone wouldn't have called it into question (and it wasn't you, goldi)

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Grow a spine and call me out by my name!

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Posted by marymoon
I don't consider myself very religious though.

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So why would you think I was calling you out on being religious with two faiths when you yourself said you are not religious.


Anyway, this thread has turned into a discussion that I can't be included in.
Have a good day everyone!

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1) because I didn't feel like arguing!

2) then who WERE you referring to?

3) Have A Nice Day!

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Posted by marymoon

And this is another thought to throw into the mix of ideas.

People say the biggest and msot balck and white division between jeiwsh and not jewish is whether or not you believe in jesus.

Well, how about the belief (I'm not sure which groups believe this) that if your mother is jewish you're jewish. And this is a common belief. There is also the belief that once you are jewish you are ALWAYS jewish, even if you convert to another religion, for our sake, let';s say christianity. So in that case, you can be jewish (because you were born jewish and will always be jewish) and believe in christ (which you obviously do or you would not have converted).

And there are other things that can be called into this questions such as the jewish religion vs. the jewish ethnicity/heritage

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More interesting thoughts...the religious vs. heritage thing has always been a biggie for me, b/c I consider myself more culturally Jewish that religiously, at least in terms of observance. I am into Jewish culture, and Israel, and have always felt strongly about it b/c of the traditions and the singing and dancing. When I go to synagogue, it isn't always b/c I feel a huge connection to g-d, but b/c I like going and singing and being part of the congregation. I follow traditions b/c they are part of my history and make me feel spiritually connected, not necessarily b/c I was told to do them by g-d. Judaism is very different from other religions b/c of the cultural aspect. When someone asks me what my ethnic background is, I say 'I'm Jewish'.