How religious are you?

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Posted by prncssrachel

I am not religious at all. If I told you why I'm getting married in a churched, I'd totally get flamed, I'm sure.

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now I wanna know! Please share!

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I also believe, and this is where I differ form most people, but I believe that we're all waiting for the same thing. Jesus will come again in some form, and THAT will also be the time the Jewish people will recognize him as the messiah, and the prophecies will be fulfilled.

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You are truly entitled to your opinion and I respect it completely. But one of the fundamentals of Judaism is that there are NO IMAGES OF G-D. When Moses came down from the mountain after accepting the Ten Commandments, he saw the slaves released from bondage in Egypt worshiping a golden calf. Moses threw down the tablets and went back up the mountain to receive new ones. It is my understanding that Jesus took the form of man. That being said, Jewish people could not possibly recognize him as the messiah. It is an impossibilty.

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Posted by Goldi1021

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I also believe, and this is where I differ form most people, but I believe that we're all waiting for the same thing. Jesus will come again in some form, and THAT will also be the time the Jewish people will recognize him as the messiah, and the prophecies will be fulfilled.

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You are truly entitled to your opinion and I respect it completely. But one of the fundamentals of Judaism is that there are NO IMAGES OF G-D. When Moses came down from the mountain after accepting the Ten Commandments, he saw the slaves released from bondage in Egypt worshiping a golden calf. Moses threw down the tablets and went back up the mountain to receive new ones. It is my understanding that Jesus took the form of man. That being said, Jewish people could not possibly recognize him as the messiah. It is an impossibilty.

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There are a lot fo different interpretations of this, because throughout the bible there are MANY references to god'a nthropomorphism. God's hands, god's footsteps in the garden of eden, etc, etc. So I think it can go both ways.

Also, didn't god himself command them to put the images of cheubim over the arc of the covenant? (I'm not sure about this...)?

So I sort of think everything is open to interpretation. There's SO much contradiction in the bible, so it can't ALL be true, and there are many different interpretations.

Also, I never thought of the 2nd commandment thing applying to jesus or god taking on human form. What form do people expect eliijah and the messiah to come in?

I'm not being antagonistic. I truly never thought of it this way...

ALSO, didn't the lubavitches (sp?) think that a MAN was the messiah? So it can't be THAT antithetical to judaism.

I really never thought that the graven images thing had anything to do with whether or not god could take on human form.

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Posted by lilmrs

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Posted by prncssrachel

I am not religious at all. If I told you why I'm getting married in a churched, I'd totally get flamed, I'm sure.

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now I wanna know! Please share!

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Let's just say it's selfish and not for the 'right' reasons. I was also asked to leave my church at the age of 13 because 'God did not love me anymore' according to the priest. Long story that I don't feel like sharing right now, but I will certainly go into it when I have more time.

I also want to add that I don't meant o say that jewish people will all be 'saved' and know that jesus of nazareth was their messiah, etc. I just believe that what christians believe is the 2nd coming and what jewish people believe as the first will be the same exact thing.

Or maybe jesus wasn't the messiah but was the herald of the messiah and what is interpreted as his 2nd coming is the coming of the ACTUAL messiah.

it's imposisble to know. I think you just have to go with what feels right in your heart.

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Posted by marymoon


ALSO, didn't the lubavitches (sp?) think that a MAN was the messiah? So it can't be THAT antithetical to judaism.

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Many other sects of Judaism have a problem with the Lubuvichers beliving that the Rebbe Manachem Schneerson was the Messiah. When I was in Israel for a month, we went to visit the home of an ultra-Orthodox couple. I asked them how they felt about the Lubuvicher movement. They basically said that while they are wonderful in terms of community outreach, they don't really feel that the belief that the Rebbe was the Messiah follows with the beliefs of the rest of Judaism. I found this very interesting and happen to agree.

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Posted by marymoon

it's imposisble to know. I think you just have to go with what feels right in your heart.

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I think this is the most important thing to keep in mind. There is no right or wrong when it comes to religion. It is all belief.

Was it because he was a man, or for other reasons?

I'm really curious. In all of my conversations the reason jewish people don't believe jesus was the messaih was because they didn't feel he had fulfilled the prophecies that told what the messiah would accomplish, never anything about him being a person.

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Posted by marymoon

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Posted by Goldi1021

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I also believe, and this is where I differ form most people, but I believe that we're all waiting for the same thing. Jesus will come again in some form, and THAT will also be the time the Jewish people will recognize him as the messiah, and the prophecies will be fulfilled.

---

You are truly entitled to your opinion and I respect it completely. But one of the fundamentals of Judaism is that there are NO IMAGES OF G-D. When Moses came down from the mountain after accepting the Ten Commandments, he saw the slaves released from bondage in Egypt worshiping a golden calf. Moses threw down the tablets and went back up the mountain to receive new ones. It is my understanding that Jesus took the form of man. That being said, Jewish people could not possibly recognize him as the messiah. It is an impossibilty.

---

There are a lot fo different interpretations of this, because throughout the bible there are MANY references to god'a nthropomorphism. God's hands, god's footsteps in the garden of eden, etc, etc. So I think it can go both ways.

Also, didn't god himself command them to put the images of cheubim over the arc of the covenant? (I'm not sure about this...)?

So I sort of think everything is open to interpretation. There's SO much contradiction in the bible, so it can't ALL be true, and there are many different interpretations.

Also, I never thought of the 2nd commandment thing applying to jesus or god taking on human form. What form do people expect eliijah and the messiah to come in?

I'm not being antagonistic. I truly never thought of it this way...

ALSO, didn't the lubavitches (sp?) think that a MAN was the messiah? So it can't be THAT antithetical to judaism.

I really never thought that the graven images thing had anything to do with whether or not god could take on human form.

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IMO. It is pretty straight forward. No images of G-d. I expect a spirit, not a person. The Lubavitchers, as I have previously stated, believe that the Grand Rebbe Menachem Schneerson will return as the Messiah. I do not think they thought of him as the Messiah until he was dead. I also don't think they expect him to return in human form.

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Posted by prncssrachel

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Posted by lilmrs

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Posted by prncssrachel

I am not religious at all. If I told you why I'm getting married in a churched, I'd totally get flamed, I'm sure.

---

now I wanna know! Please share!

---

Let's just say it's selfish and not for the 'right' reasons. I was also asked to leave my church at the age of 13 because 'God did not love me anymore' according to the priest. Long story that I don't feel like sharing right now, but I will certainly go into it when I have more time.

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understood

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Posted by marymoon

Was it because he was a man, or for other reasons?

I'm really curious. In all of my conversations the reason jewish people don't believe jesus was the messaih was because they didn't feel he had fulfilled the prophecies that told what the messiah would accomplish, never anything about him being a person.

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You know, i'm honestly not sure of the reasons, so I don't want to say anything incorrect. I was under the impression that it was b/c he was a man, although from what Goldi said, they believe that he will come back as a spirit.

My religious knowledge is not wonderful...you've probably studied a lot more judaism than I have, so I don't want to say anything wrong or miseading. I just had a lousy hebrew school education.

I consider myself extremely religious

I never go to church, but won't decline if asked

I celebrate my beliefs differently but the major holidays are different for me

I do not believe the sabbath means to go to church but to rest and reflect, therefore yes I do practice in my own way.

My biggest pet peeve is folks who think Im atheist or call me names when they hear I am Agnostic and most important when they assume they know me because I say I am agnostic and therefore they feel the 'right' to tell me Im wrong and try to teach me the right way.

Annoying


I believe no one singular faith is completely and utterly wrong. I also don't believe any one faith is completely and utterly correct. I believe they all have their faults and no one really knows without a shadow of a doubt.


ETA: My faith is practiced every day with every breath, not just on certain days. Each moment is a moment of faith to me.

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Posted by Jax430



You know, i'm honestly not sure of the reasons, so I don't want to say anything incorrect. I was under the impression that it was b/c he was a man, although from what Goldi said, they believe that he will come back as a spirit.

My religious knowledge is not wonderful...you've probably studied a lot more judaism than I have, so I don't want to say anything wrong or miseading. I just had a lousy hebrew school education.

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I mean, this is the thing, I've studied judaism in a very different way because I was able to study it from the outside. I got the best grades ina class full of 12 year yeshiva students in jewish culture precisely because I was learning it form the ground up. And I have done a lot of reading and studying and questioning, etc. But what sort of eludes me a lot of the time are the things that most jewish people take for granted or just sort of 'know.' It's a sort of synergistic thing I guess. I see it with Doug too. He hasn't studying catholicism at all (I don't study judaism because of him...I came upon it completely independently), but he tries to pick up what he can and there are things he just doesn't 'get' and there's no way I'll make him get them because to me they're beyond words, and they're so deeply embedded. And those sorts of things about judaism are the things I'll ever be able to understand. I can take a really sort of rational approach to judaism because I'm looking at it in a studying kind of way, but although I come to it with a very critical and questioning mind, I have a hard time thinking that way about catholicism.

So there's book knowledge, there's the sort of knowledge you just acquire by being immersed in something (which I'mstarting to acquire as well), and thre's a kind of knowledge I think you can only get by being completely embedded in something from birth.

That' why on some posts about judaims I have a really different perspective because I am viewing it form an outside perspective. And I've got a lot more 'book knowledge' than many many jewish people (certainly not the ones who really dedicate themselves to studying torah, but maybe your average joe on the street), but I don't have a lot of the other kinds of knowledge, except fr what I am gradually starting to acquire through study, and prayer, going to services and being part of holidays and life cycle events with friends and Doug's family. But I've realized recently, as I've become more religious in general, that i've become closer to BOTH religions (i know most people think this is not possible...), and that judaism has really become a part of me and my heart and spiritual life.

FH and I are both believers in God, and we were both raised catholic. He wears a cross everyday, I wear mine 90% of the time.

I was in the church choir for 7 years, but had enough and left because I learned that I really don't agree with some (many) of the Catholic church practices. FH and his family never went to church growing up, and he has no interest in going.

I would like to say that I live like a Christian, and I'm proud of that, so I guess that's all that really matters. We will raise our children Catholic, but we will not be married in the Catholic church.

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Posted by Xelindrya

I consider myself extremely religious

I never go to church, but won't decline if asked

I celebrate my beliefs differently but the major holidays are different for me

I do not believe the sabbath means to go to church but to rest and reflect, therefore yes I do practice in my own way.

My biggest pet peeve is folks who think Im atheist or call me names when they hear I am Agnostic and most important when they assume they know me because I say I am agnostic and therefore they feel the 'right' to tell me Im wrong and try to teach me the right way.

Annoying


I believe no one singular faith is completely and utterly wrong. I also don't believe any one faith is completely and utterly correct. I believe they all have their faults and no one really knows without a shadow of a doubt.


ETA: My faith is practiced every day with every breath, not just on certain days. Each moment is a moment of faith to me.

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I just wanted to say that this was beautifully said, Veronica. I agree with you on many of your points, but you put it more eloquently than my tired mind would allow.

In answering some of the questions brought up in this thread:

Jews for Jesus is a propaganda movement to make it seem more 'okay' for Jews to be 'saved.' It was created by a Christian responsible for Jewish Outreach, who realized that Jews would feel guilty about 'abandoning their heritage' so he made up this philosophy to justify it.

You can be of Jewish Heritage and Christian, but once you believe Jesus is G-d, you are no longer Jewish in the religious sense. Saying that anyone other than G-d is G-d is 100% against the religion. A Cannot Be B. You can appreciate the religion, and many of its tennets, but if you believe that Jesus is Divine you are Not Jewish in the religious sense. This is one of the Few Things that All Jews will agree on, and believe me, there aren't many. Neither is better than the other, but to say one is both is a contradiction.

It is important to distinguish between G-d and the Messiah. The Jewish Moshiach is *not* supposed to be G-d, nor was he supposed to be the son of G-d, or anything of the sort. The Messiah in Judaism is a herald of a peaceful era. So the Lububvitchers thinking that the Rebbe was the Messiah is not antithetical whatsoever. Unfortunately it looks like they're mistaken, but it's happened before and I'm sure it will happen again. I say unfortunately because I would really like a peaceful era.

I am a very religious person, I've done a lot of studying on my and other religions, and I find that Reform Judaism works best for me. And BTW, I find Brad's concept of work/non-work totally acceptable, even if it is a pain in the behind for you, Jackie (). Not working can mean leisure, and for our DHs, leisure means Video Games!

This is all I'm going to say on here. If you disagree or have a problem with anything I've said you can FM me because these threads always get me in trouble.

I defintiely can't and don't call myself jewish by conventional means, but I don't think it's black and white. If you ask 1000 jewish people what it means to be jewish and where they draw the line b/w 'Jewish' and 'not jewish', you will get over 900 different answers. I think thre's a lot of grey area, but maybe I don't have a right to comment because I'm not jewish.

See, even the identity of who can and cannot be the messiah has been compeltely contradicted by jewish people on this very thread.

Earlier some people said that the messiah will be divine and NOT human and can't be human because there can be no images of god on earth, and now you're saying the messiah will NOT be divine. It's two completely opposite reasons for why jesus is not the messiah.

So it's really not something everyone a agrees on. And I think there's SO much more to being jewish than whether or not you believe in jesus. But that may be one of those embedded things that you can't learn from book knowledge or at a later age.

I think by definition you can't be christian if you don't believe in jesus because jesus is a central figure in christianity, inf act THE central figure..but I don't think being jewish or not jewish has to NECESSARILY hinge on not believeing in jesus, because judaism was SO much before jesus and in jesus' time... There is SO much disagreement within the whoe of judaism (not a criticism, a fact), and there are so many things that are completely different depending on who you ask, everything from who is jewish, to what is the meaning of habbat observance, to who god is..if god is multiple or singular or neither, and all of those people fall under the umbrella of judaism, then why can't a disagreement about jesus. I know this is huge. But I don't think ti's completely irreconcilable. I think the kind of stringent black and white take on this stems from the same dort of political separatism that led christians away from jewish holidays. i think there's a tendency toward definition, etc. I mean, essentially in biblical times, the christians were jews who believed in jesus. I'm not trying to underestimate how important this actually is. But up until then there was no difference, so I don't see why it has to be mutually exclusive.

Anyway, these are just things I think about.