SPINOFF: Wagner Antisemite -Wedding March?

I've heard a lot of Jewish brides say they won't use the wedding march b/c Wagner was an antisemite. What do you think of this?

For me, i don't know what I'm going to choose, I haven't thought about it yet, but I don't think I would discount the wedding march for that reason. I don't think it's making much of a statement because not many people know, but moreso because there's no money or support lent to wagner because of you playing the song. He's dead, you're not fueling his antisemitism. I don't really see what it does to not play the song...

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Posted by marymoon

I've heard a lot of Jewish brides say they won't use the wedding march b/c Wagner was an antisemite. What do you think of this?

For me, i don't know what I'm going to choose, I haven't thought about it yet, but I don't think I would discount the wedding march for that reason. I don't think it's making much of a statement because not many people know, but moreso because there's no money or support lent to wagner because of you playing the song. He's dead, you're not fueling his antisemitism. I don't really see what it does to not play the song...

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I don't think it is so much about making a statement as it is just not feeling personally comfortable with it. And if Jewish brides aren't comfortable with it, than that's all you need to understand. I don't understand what point you're trying to make?

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Posted by marymoon

I've heard a lot of Jewish brides say they won't use the wedding march b/c Wagner was an antisemite. What do you think of this?

For me, i don't know what I'm going to choose, I haven't thought about it yet, but I don't think I would discount the wedding march for that reason. I don't think it's making much of a statement because not many people know, but moreso because there's no money or support lent to wagner because of you playing the song. He's dead, you're not fueling his antisemitism. I don't really see what it does to not play the song...

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every time that song is played it is a reminder of the anti semitic feeling that permated through the times. sorry, not gonna play that at my wedding. i am jewish and i will not be having that at my wedding. but hey, just like being a vegetarian, its a personal choice. if you are comfortable using the song and feel that no one knows the history behind it, it's your personal choice to do so!

My best friend was not ALLOWED to use the wedding march in her temple because it was written by an anti-semite. With that in mind, I chose not to use the wedding march out of respect for the Jewish side of my family. I'm not even Jewish myself, but my grandfather was so its something I take very seriously.

Edited for accuracy.

While Richard Wagner lived decades before the birth of Nazism, his influence on the National Socialist movement and especially on its leader was enormous. In a tractate, Das Judenthum in der Musik, first published in 1850 under a pseudonym in the Neue Zeitschrift für Musik, Wagner wrote that Jewish music is bereft of all expression, characterized by coldness and indifference, triviality and nonsense. The Jew, he claimed, has no true passion to impel him to artistic creation. The Jewish composer, according to Wagner, makes a confused heap of the forms and styles of all ages and masters. To admit a Jew into the world of art results in pernicious consequences. In Deutsche Kunst und Deutsche Politik, Wagner spoke of the 'harmful influence of Jewry on the morality of the nation,' adding that the subversive power of Jewry stands in contrast to the German psyche.

The entire argument about playing Wagner in Israel does not, in reality, centre around the quality of his music. The question is not whether Wagner's music is of high or low quality, nor is the argument about how deep-seated was his antisemitism really relevant. There is no doubt that there have been other composers who were no less antisemitic. While it cannot be maintained that Wagner was directly responsible for German national socialism, there is no doubt that he was a powerful symbol in the Nazi era, and his music held a singular importance in the Nazi psyche. Thus, for Jewish survivors of the Nazi horrors, Wagner's music represents a vivid reminder of that regime. The argument that music must be separated from politics is not cogent in general, and certainly not in this case. If anybody introduced politics into music, it was Richard Wagner himself.


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Source: Israeli Foreign Ministry

Our Rabbi recommended other songs for us to play b/c of this.
I knew about it - and my friend who is doing the ceremony music has chosen classical music for us.

This is something that I teach all of my music history classes. You would be surprised how many jewish people don't know why they shouldn't use The Bridal March from Loehengrin. Wagner was NOT a Nazi. The Nazis didn't even exist when he was alive, but Wagner's music and writings (he was mostly a writer of articles and books), were used as propaganda by the Nazis, and his family even supplied Hitler with the paper that he wrote Mein Kemf (sp. sorry) on in jail. So he is not highly regarded. But on the other hand, as all great things are not without controversy, from a purely musical stand, he wrote some of the most innovative, beautiful music ever written. So as a musician and historian, I can certainly appreciate his music without appreciating him. There are tons of debates on this. Many musicologists do not feel you can separate his views from his music since he wrote a book titled Jewishness in Music, proclaiming (dilutedly, of course), that all 'bad' music was written by the Jews. The debates are very interesting and I suggest reading about them if you get the chance.

Now, after that spiel, if anyone would like, I do have a list of alternatives to Here Comes the Bride.

I don't care if the guy is dead and not making a dime off of the song being played. Just as I would not quote Hitler on my wedding day (even if the quote was about how blue the sky is and having nothing to do with Jews), I would not have a single moment of my wedding tinged with anything that came from someone who simply hated my ancestors, and, in turn, me, because of my religion. I know what he stood for as does almost every single person who will be at my wedding.

It's a personal decision which, in light of the clearly prejudicial viewpoint of the composer, should not have to be justified to anyone.

Beside, Wagner personal politcal views, wasn't this peice in particular written in an anti -semitc context?
that to me directly effects the meaning of the song, which is why I don't want to use it.

And, I 'm not too crazy about it musically anyway.

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Posted by tourist

Beside, Wagner personal politcal views, wasn't this peice in particular written in an anti -semitc context?
that to me directly effects the meaning of the song, which is why I don't want to use it.

And, I 'm not too crazy about it musically anyway.

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There's no 'proof' that the opera was anti-semitic. This is what most of the debates are about. Wagner used symbolism to its very best effect, and therefore, it's very easy to read into things that may or may not be implied. We do know that his opera Pasifal, or The Pure One (or Pure Fool as some translations have it), was his one truly anti-semitic work. It is about the Holy Grail and the witches and sorcerers in the opera are supposed to be the Jews, while the 'Knights' and Parsifal are supposed to represent the Christians.

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Posted by 121502

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Posted by tourist

Beside, Wagner personal politcal views, wasn't this peice in particular written in an anti -semitc context?
that to me directly effects the meaning of the song, which is why I don't want to use it.

And, I 'm not too crazy about it musically anyway.

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There's no 'proof' that the opera was anti-semitic. This is what most of the debates are about. Wagner used symbolism to its very best effect, and therefore, it's very easy to read into things that may or may not be implied. We do know that his opera Pasifal, or The Pure One (or Pure Fool as some translations have it), was his one truly anti-semitic work. It is about the Holy Grail and the witches and sorcerers in the opera are supposed to be the Jews, while the 'Knights' and Parsifal are supposed to represent the Christians.

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Thanks- I didn't know anything about this
before LIW!

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Posted by tourist



Thanks- I didn't know anything about this
before LIW!

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There's a TON of things I know nothing about, so when I actually know something, it's hard to make me shut up Thanks for listening to my speech

I wasn't trying to make ANY point. I was asking for a POV, and I gave mine.

Thanks so much for all of the posts. I think this is an interesting topic, and most people don't really know anything about it. I didn't know much about the roots of, I'd just heard 'I won't play this b/c wagner is an anti-semite' no one has ever gtiven me their in depth POV on it or an explanation. I'm not saying any NEEDS to explain anything to me. People have a right to use whatever song they want for whatever reason. I was just trying to understand that POV better.

Why is it that everytime I ry understand someone else's POV on these baords I get jumped on? *sigh*

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Posted by marymoon
I don't think it's making much of a statement because not many people know, but moreso because there's no money or support lent to wagner because of you playing the song. He's dead, you're not fueling his antisemitism. I don't really see what it does to not play the song...

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Perhaps you feel like you get jumped on when you try to get other people's points of view because of the way you word things. Your quote above is somewhat antagonistic, and doesn't feel very welcoming of others' opinions. JMO.