This infuriates me

BUt thats what I do not understand...

Is it the same because it wasnt PLACED there. Do the same 'laws' ring true?? No one religious group placed this cross there...no one was trying to force religion down anyone elses throat...

I see a difference.

wendy...that is not the interpretation that most courts use...the idea of this fight is with the establishment clause of the 1st amendment...

that by having (doesn't matter how it got there) it on government/public protperty...that the government is endorsing a specific religion...very similar to the case in Alabama that was just decided regarding the statue of the 10 Commandments in a state courthouse


no one is denying that Christians can not worship on the ground...whenever or whereever they choose...as long as they do not violate trespassing laws...


in the end...for construction to finish...it needs to be removed...I would hope since it brings comfort to so many people...that a Church (or churches) would get totgether to find a special spot for it.

hehe
Tell me about it.. I just 'brushed' up on this topic.. read the last 5 pages. Whew.. what an exercise.

As a odd ball christian semi-agnostic.. if find this whole thing sorta sad in a twisted religious way.

On one hand.. I so very much support the Aethists who started this suit. If nothing else.. can we please not call it a 'cross' and just say it's a few beams left from the trade center that some believed held religious importance during those trying times?

Im REALLY sorry and seriously don't want to offend a soul (haha) BUT.. what if we're wrong like the Romans and Greeks were. I feel religion is sorta forced on us as children. Im guilty of it .. I believe.. but im honest enough to admit I believe due to blind faith and basically cause I was brainwashed enough to be unable to deal with the idea of not having a God. That's alright with me.

On the other hand... whats with the suit? I hope its only to bring attention to this matter. Although I think calling it a cross and shoving it up there in our faces is pretty much shoving God and Christianity in our faces, I still think it's only a piece of scrap metal.. From MY office building no less!

So.. there's my six cents or so.. sort of a rehash from pages 1 & 3 or so.. I think.

Can't we all just get along and respect eachothers beliefs period? Hopefully we have come to a point in our history where one religion can't just take over the world by mass advertising. (hopefully)

Im a little bummed about all this attention to the pledge, the declaration of Independence, commandments in a state house, dixie cross on flags, indian names for football teams and money issues. I think we've gotten just a bit out of control.

DING DING....ROUND 2!!

It's not as blatent as being placed there but a cross is considered a Christian symbol. It was blessed by a Christian preist. That makes it even more religious and it cannot stand on gov't property.

I may be wrong, but I believe that it fell that way, however, it was later erected there and blessed, was it not? I don't think the issue is how it was constructed, but what it means.

Eh, what do I know? My brain is mush right now.

Xel:

Im a little bummed about all this attention to the pledge, the declaration of Independence, commandments in a state house, dixie cross on flags, indian names for football teams and money issues. I think we've gotten just a bit out of control.

what if the government said there could be no religion at all...or we had to practice Islam...would you be so bummed at the people that were trying to protect your rights?



I consider myself pretty lucky that my parents didn't force any religion on me (with the exception of Santa Clause - who is a pagan character anyway...lol) but my sister did chose to find a religion...

oooooooooh it was blessed..
hehe sorry but I find that funny.

So if a priest blesses my house or two sticks glued together then *I* have to consider it holy??!??!?!

PLEASE! That really puts me off. Isnt the priest just a guy who thinks he's a speaker for god..an interpreter of sorts.. whose been confirmed by his religion to be at such an appointed position? But honestly isn't he just a GUY!?!?!?

The 'cross' was the 'cross beams' for the building. It wasn't as if God came and said 'Here before you, you see the evidence of my presense.' People will always find proof of evidence during tragic times of God or Christ. Again.. we sort of have to. But that doesn't mean it makes it holy.

Im Confused.. if a catholic priest blesses the cross does an pedecostal consider it blessed? does a methodist or baptist or jehovah witness or lutheran or so many other millions others consider it a holy item? I sure dont.

It's scrap metal. Yep, it looks like a cross but that's coincidence to me.. not holy intervention. Again, why can't we just say it resembles what other may consider a cross. Why must we say it's a 'Cross' that's so beyond my understand.

Disclaimer: Please do not take me seriously if it offends you, please do not sue me for the use of the name of your church or those churches which you may at one point in your life been affiliated with. Please consider this post the opinion of only the postee and not the world in general. Consider this an apology to all those whom I respect to may consider this rude in any way whatsoever. This message was meant only as an opinion which can or can not change later with the introduction of new facts.

yabbobay..
hehe Yeah that Santa thing cracks me up.
Ive known about that one for years and why Christmas is on Dec 25 to begin with.

I believe that if i were born to a world where I was forced to do a certain thing, then I would assume it was normal and natural. I can't make assumptions on how I would have felt if something different were to have happened without my knowledge since we all know HindSight is 20/20.

If I only knew then what i know now. I don't blame my parents.. I am very glad my father let me reach out and say 'no, that aint right' to several things when I was younger. I believe what I believe. I got people saying im christian, im agnostic, im lost, im anti-religious.. ive heard it all.. most won't say aethiest tho. Go figure.

I just figure.. if it isn't really really hurting someone why are we changing it? If it aint broke.... theory.
Maybe I can see your point for the money and the pledge, but dixie crosses and indian named football teams (talking HS here). Gimme a break. I said it bums me out. Yes, but notice I didn't say it infuriates me enough to go out and protest, because I see the point. I may not agree, but thats my right.. I may not have to agree with you, but I dont have to be happy about it. Make sense?

Of course you don't have to consider it holy but there will be people that will consider it holy.

A preist, rabbi, minister, etc. is someone that has been taught to spread the preachings of which ever religion and people of that religion may consider them 'messengers of god'.

People see statues cry and move because they believe so fiercely so I am sure there will be some people that will think that of all the rubble and scrap metal from the collapse of the WTC to find one in the shape of a cross is a sign from god.

It's scrap metal. Yep, it looks like a cross but that's coincidence to me.. not holy intervention. Again, why can't we just say it resembles what other may consider a cross. Why must we say it's a 'Cross' that's so beyond my understand.


so there should be no problem with removing it...and continuing with the approved project....

Christine:

A preist, rabbi, minister, etc. is someone that has been taught to spread the preachings of which ever religion and people of that religion may consider them 'messengers of god'.

These are still just mortal men. They are NOT god themselves. Their only true power here is by the belief of their followers. (hence I don't do the church thing). They are no worse than us and definately NOT better than us.

They are sinners that must pay their price just like the rest of us. I don't recognize them as spiritual leaders but as people just spent a whole lot more time reading that book than I did..and folks who wanted to spend the rest of their life talking about it. Fine by me..but you ain't better than me and you don't make something holy for me. Be it a building called a church cause they say so or a crossbeams into a cross.

Before it gets werid.. I'm getting married by the courts.. Justice of the Peace... later for my parents and others who feel the ceremony is the key, I will be married by a priest.. maybe.. if their cheap enough.. or we might find a good friend to say 'do you and you, great your married.. lets eat!'



AGAIN!! Please don't be offended by any of this. I am not offended by anything I have read so far and think everyone is entitled to their own opinions!

the fact is that a petition was drawn up stating that it was a religious symbol...and they want it to stay...

perhaps if that petition was never started...the 'scrap metal/crss' could remain....

yabbobay.
Yep, I agree. No issue with taking it down. My issue is.. the scrap metal we're talking about here is a part of my office that I worked in. Althought I REALLY wish they wouldnt call it a 'cross' I do want to see it stand fully upright back where it was. Not for God or anyone's special feelings..but to say SCRE*W YOU to the people who tried to knock it down. It survived and so shall we.

Now.. if this piece of scrap metal is removed for 'religious' reasons be it aethiest or any other religion who feels they aren't represented by the cross then that to me is sick. I mean I feel like it sorta corrupted the symbol of it's strength. (not godly) If it had been just a straight piece with the cross beam a little *ahem* lower, would this still be an issue? I would hope not. Does that make ANY sense???

And my reply to that is...

Who cares?!?! If one person can find some kind of symbolism that makes them feel better than let it be. I would feel the same if a jewish person found a symbol amongst the ruins that made him/her feel better after losing a loved one. Who are we as human beings to take that peace away from people....?

There is no peace in 9/11...if this is a source of peace for some, why cant we leave at least 'some' at peace?

I understand everyones views and points and am very open minded. I just guess my heart speaks before my mind in this case.

Hey everyone, ever just fight about something so much that you begin to repeat the argument you had been having for 10 PAGES?

noreen...I CARE...why should my religious freedom be put in jeopardy...

history has proven that if we voluntarily give up our rights, it is easier for government to take away more...

yabbobay:
OOOOH!!
now wait a minute. I didn't realize folks were out there signing a piece of paper making this thing into a holy item. That just bites..
That to me is wrong is sooooooooooo many ways.
That's like making the site itself a church!
ick ew bad.
bad bad bad .. god I can't even begin to imagine how bad that is.. even as a person who believes in God, the death and ressurrection of Christ is son and our savor plus the holy ghost .. WHAT ARE WE THINKING?? This is why I don't go to church. My god.. why must we CONSTANTLY make everything so godly!?!?!??

Ok... I KNOW I offended people with that one.. I should have kept my mouth shut.. call me a hyprocrite whatever.. but My opinion is.. don't make the site a church.. just a memorial. It wasn't a church before and shouldnt be now. If you want to concerate the burial area for religious reasons.. I think im alright with that.. but were they all christians? But if they were aethiests.. how can we tell we didn't insult them? Bless the land if it makes you feel better.. I won't recongize that, but at least its not a declared symbol of Christ.

Why can't we leave things alone??

Sorry sorry sorry sorry..I am very sorry.. i know my thoughts on religion are sorta twisted and strange.. and I know I may/have insulted people.. and that's NOT my intentions.

Each of us has a right (born to it) to believe what we want no matter what. I just disagree with forcing it onto anyone else, period.