Brides Helping Brides ™ - Im in the mood for some controversy, Anyone else?(beware strong subject) – Page 2

Helene718 Posted: Jun 02, 2003 04:03 PM

Re: Im in the mood for some controversy, Anyone else?(beware strong subject)

I don't understand how anyone can be 100% pro-choice, yet feel that Laci's killer should be charged on two counts of murder. It just seems inconsistent to me. JMO Feel free to explain.

Jordan Posted: Jun 02, 2003 04:05 PM

Re: Im in the mood for some controversy, Anyone else?(beware strong subject)

I said a 'part of me'. I really don't see what else there is to explain.

I also said it was a constant duality for me. You've never fought with yourself over things?

Leelee Posted: Jun 02, 2003 04:08 PM

Re: Im in the mood for some controversy, Anyone else?(beware strong subject)

I believe that perhaps she was implying there's a large difference between a fetus who has not yet developed it's arms, legs, skeletal system, etc. as opposed to a baby who is on the cusp of birth--such as Laci's baby.

Lunatrek Posted: Jun 02, 2003 04:08 PM

Re: Im in the mood for some controversy, Anyone else?(beware strong subject)

I agree that two counts of murder would be appropriate. They were married and planned on having that child. As far as we knew, it was a healthy baby and would have been just fine once it was born. I don't think the Laci Peterson case can be along the same lines of this topic...

I'm glad to see that we all generally share the same opinions. None of us could do it ourselves, especially since we're getting (or already are) married, but we all support a woman's right to choose. Let's hope that our opinions are strong enough to keep from Roe v. Wade from overturning!

Kudos to wacky for starting this thread!

LizD Posted: Jun 02, 2003 04:10 PM

Re: Im in the mood for some controversy, Anyone else?(beware strong subject)

I agree with Michelle31 100% on the pro-choice and pro-education.

I would want to add that I am not 100% pro-choice for late term abortions unless the mothers life is in danger to carry the pregnancy.

Helene 718 - being pro-choice would mean that the woman would be able to make the choice on her own to either have the baby or not. If someone kills the mother when she is 8 months pregnant, and she had obvioulsy made the 'choice' to have her baby, but that was taken away from her by the killer.

kptoys Posted: Jun 02, 2003 04:10 PM

Re: Im in the mood for some controversy, Anyone else?(beware strong subject)

I am very pro choice. I think if a fetus can survive outside the womb then it should have equal rights as a person but before the 26th week (although I think 2nd trimester or later abortion is SOOOOOO wrong) its mother has sole say in the care or lack of care the child receives.

This is such a horrible subject and I don't think my mind and my fingers are working together to get out a coherient thought...

Jordan Posted: Jun 02, 2003 04:12 PM

Re: Im in the mood for some controversy, Anyone else?(beware strong subject)

Yes, thank you Leelee.

I see the difference, I understand the difference - but not at the cost of losing a woman's right to choose.

Helene718 Posted: Jun 02, 2003 04:16 PM

Re: Im in the mood for some controversy, Anyone else?(beware strong subject)

cp - Of course I've fought with myself over things My question was not necessarily directed at you. I know I quoted your 100% pro-choice, so I can see why you may have thought it was. I myself am coming from a very different perspective being pro-life and I was just curoious how people in general are able to justify the two counts of murder while being pro-choice. Sorry if you felt I was directing that only at you. I am just truly curious.

Sassyz75 Posted: Jun 02, 2003 04:17 PM

Re: Im in the mood for some controversy, Anyone else?(beware strong subject)

I think what just baffles me is why women have so many abortions. Your life is in danger? Fine. You got raped? Fine. Even if there is something really terribly wrong with the baby, fine..

but because you are too lazy to use some form of birth control? Come on. I support a women's right to choose, but I also am way more for a women's DUTY to protect herself and take responsibility for her body.

And I really cannot stomach late term abortions unless the mother's life is in danger. What's with people who are like.. wow, I'm 6 months pregnant, I had no idea.. come on!!!!

It's that type of stupidity that drives me crazy.

P.S... in defense of the women who are going to say 'what if the condom breaks'.. we all know this can happen- if you are really that concerned, you could use a back up foam or something...

Jordan Posted: Jun 02, 2003 04:25 PM

Re: Im in the mood for some controversy, Anyone else?(beware strong subject)

First of all, you'd be hard pressed to find a Dr who will perform a 'later term abortion' just because 'whoops, I forgot to protect myself'. The 'later term abortion' numbers are constantly inflated by right-wing fanatics who take to bombing abortion clinics in the name of life.

Bc pills are what, 99.5% effective? Yet I know women who have gotten pregnant while on the pill. So we're in committed relationships yet we have to double bag it, use bc pills and foam? That's why it's called 'choice'. We choose to have sex, we choose to keep the baby, we choose to terminate it - we have full reign over *our* bodies. No one should be able to tell us otherwise.

There's a fine line between supporting something and puporting to support something while putting your own restrictions on it. It's either you support it or you don't, imo.

michele31 Posted: Jun 02, 2003 04:28 PM

Re: Im in the mood for some controversy, Anyone else?(beware strong subject)

Just a point- very FEW women use abortion as a form of birth control. That is very rare. The same as rape victims needing abortions, again very rare. With the morning after pill many rape victims that get medical treatment are now protected against having to make this decision.

I think the fact that the child was outside of Lacy's body when it was found, and there are some news reports that the baby actually had something tied to its body (plastic or something like that). If it is outside of her body then perhaps it will be considered a 'person'. I am not sure how that is going to work though.

Helene718 Posted: Jun 02, 2003 04:30 PM

Re: Im in the mood for some controversy, Anyone else?(beware strong subject)

cp - Well, I couldn't agree with you more on one thing you said:

There's a fine line between supporting something and puporting to support something while putting your own restrictions on it. It's either you support it or you don't, imo.

Jordan Posted: Jun 02, 2003 04:33 PM

Re: Im in the mood for some controversy, Anyone else?(beware strong subject)

Good points, Michele31.

Helene, not sure if that's a backhanded agreement or not.

Sonicstef Posted: Jun 02, 2003 04:34 PM

Re: Im in the mood for some controversy, Anyone else?(beware strong subject)

I am pro-choice for one major reason:

THE STATE SHOULD NOT REGULATE MORALITY in my opinion.

I think on moral grounds, abortion is wrong. Its sometimes the lesser of evils, but I do believe that abortion is a form of murder.

However, I do not want the US Gov't regulating morality. We have enough trouble keeping order as it is. IMO, the only reason we should enforce a law is to keep order. For example, murder is against the law as we would live in total chaos if we were allowed to kill each other at whim, etc.. The morality of murder should not be the reason why its illegal.

The Laci Peterson case falls into the laws of keeping order. So thats how I can think we should allow abortion to be legal but her killer should be charged on double counts.

In response to cps comment...i support the right to CHOOSE an abortion as a legality while morally opposing it. A simple illustration would be my belief that men should get up out of their subway seats for a pregnant woman but I dont believe there should be a law mandating it.

Helene718 Posted: Jun 02, 2003 04:37 PM

Re: Im in the mood for some controversy, Anyone else?(beware strong subject)

cp - not at all

Wendy Posted: Jun 02, 2003 04:44 PM

Re: Im in the mood for some controversy, Anyone else?(beware strong subject)

I am also pro-choice. I do believe in a woman's right to choose what happens to and in her body. No one else has the right to make that choice. I also believe that a fetus becomes a person when it is possible for it to be viable on it's own outside the womb. In saying this let me also say that I do not agree with late-term abortions unless the mother's life is absolutely in jeopardy. But again, while I disagree, it is not my decision to make. Each woman must deal with the consequences of her own actions. It is not up to me nor anyone else to make those decisions.

As for the Peterson case I personally believe that whoever killed her should be tried on 2 counts of murder. She was far enough along for that fetus to be viable on it's own outside the womb. It is one thing for the pregnant woman to decide something about her own body and something else when it is decided for her.

Sassyz75 Posted: Jun 02, 2003 04:50 PM

Re: Im in the mood for some controversy, Anyone else?(beware strong subject)

SonicStef- that was well stated... great argument.

Let me clarify- I don't believe government should make laws revoking the right to choose.

However, I think sometimes the choice down right stinks- as in the case of my uncle's wife.

I just don't know how I survived 27 years on this Earth without getting pregnant..

Becky Posted: Jun 02, 2003 04:51 PM

Re: Im in the mood for some controversy, Anyone else?(beware strong subject)

I am not sure if two counts of murder are appropriate at this point. If Laci Peterson was killed while that fetus was still inside of her then I do not believe that two murders were committed. Strictly speaking the law does not allow that. If it did, then that would open a whole can of worms relating to injuries sustained by pregnant women that do not result in death, but perhaps injury. There will always be cases that we can point to and say 'look, that is not justice, the law should work better than that.' The bottom line is that the law does not provide an answer, a recovery, a punishement for every situation that makes everyone feel good. That is not possible. I think it is far better to keep the law the way that it is than to change it so that we can charge the relatively few number of murderers who kill pregnant woman with two counts of murder. I am sure that is no consolation to Laci Peterson's family, but in the grand scheme of things, I think that is the best way for the law to operate.

I also think there is evidence to suggest that the baby was born, or somehow was outside of the womb when it was killed. Something about a knotted rope around its neck. In that case, then the child was not a fetus, but a human being and was murdered.

Becky Posted: Jun 02, 2003 04:57 PM

Re: Im in the mood for some controversy, Anyone else?(beware strong subject)

About the late-term abortions - it makes me so angry when I see the republicans hold that up and rant and rave. The only reason that late-term abortions are not prohibited is that the republicans refuse to ratify an amendment to their proposed legislation that permits late-term abortions if the health or safety of the mother is in jeopardy. They wont budge becuase this is their way of slowly chipping away at a woman's right to choose.

This issue is going to explode in the 2004 elections. If Bush is reelected Rehnquist will retire (to be replaced as Chief Justice by Scalia THE most conservative Supreme Court Justice) and O'Connor will retire. Bush will have the opportunity to appoint two justices, plenty to overturn Roe v. Wade.