Prenups?

I'm a lawyer too and so is DH - we opted against a prenup, but we did have the discussion. In my practice, I see the aftermath of what happens when there is no prenup so it's something I felt we had to discuss (though I knew we were both against it for us, I still wanted to confirm and I feel like as a lawyer, you have to at least have the conversation). Anyway, it's easy to say that in a strong relationship, you've already covered everything, but I don't think that's true for everyone - it amazes me the things engaged couples have not discussed and the things they 'think' they know about each other (I don't have anyone specific in mind but anecdotally I feel I have heard these things) - and it's a good idea to confirm what you know in any event. But it's true - we all already have prenups under the Domestic Relations Law - all the agreement does is alter the contract the state has already defined for you. So, another way to look at it is whether you prefer your own arrangement or the state's? For me, it's irrelevant because we're in this together forever so why waste the time and money, but I'm not opposed to them and I do think they make sense for a lot of people. Because truth be told, it is a shame when ex-spouses end up with inheritances meant for a certain family line just because those inheritances were acquired during marriage. I definitely think it's a worthwhile exercise to at least discuss it with your partner, whether or not you have assets.

ETA: interesting NY law fact - NY is like the only state that treats professional degrees earned during marriage as marital property which basically translates into a lien on future earnings. Now, this is great if you're the woman who supported FH/DH while he was in medical school and now that he's making $$$$ and left you for his teenage nurse, you get back some $ for your support. But increasingly women are earning advanced degrees and factually, I suspect FH/DH's are not typically making the same sacrifices women have in the past for their husbands to get through school because you just don't hear about men dropping their careers and lives to take care of the kids and home while their wives finish medical or law school, etc. - the men whose wives are in school keep working on their own careers (but I heard the contrary a lot from the older married men in my class in law school - their wives dropped everything and moved to a small town to support their husbands and take care of the kids only to end up divorced prior to graduation). So, the tables are about to turn on this law and these are just my musings, but I have to wonder whether NY law is going to stay this way and whether that's what I would want. I'm not sure, but it's interesting and definitely relates to whether you trust the legislature to make the right call or whether you want to order your own affairs. The same can be said of a Will.

We are not having one. We own a business 50/50 that we started from nothing. Our money has been joined from before we were engaged.

This is our second engagement to each other and when the first one broke off, it was actually a brief consideration to sell everything and go our separate ways. I guess I can sort of equate that to what we might be like if (g-d forbid) there was a divorce. I was happy that we were fair with each other.

My parents are divorced and they were really decent with each other about everything.

I agree with Kb.
here's why:

1- 50% of couples end in divorce

2 People with pre-nups do NOT have higher divorce rates.

3- Even if your still in school, in NY your degree in considered an asset (that he can take a portion of in event of a split). Especially if your married during the granting of the degree, or he supported you through school.

4- your condo you owned before the marriage can easily turn into his if he puts effort into improving the place........beware when you ask him tile your bathroom........he gets a percent of that appreciation.

5-- once he starts paying the mortgage with you on YOUR place the court can force a sale of your precious home, if you are w/o money to buy out his share in a fair split.

4- he is under no obligation to support you financially during the course of your marriage. He can buy playstation 3 tomorrow, and not give you money for new rainboots, after yours are so worn out that they have holes in them.

5- it not just about money, are you prepared to lose primary custody of your children if it gets real real real spiteful? Most men don't fight for custody, but when they do, they win more often than woman.


To be fair here are the cons:

1- if you can afford a good lawyer, NY has equitable distribution, which means a court will look at what is the most fair in the split...........but keep in mind this can be regardless of who's name the car is in. And affording a good lawyer is a really big IF, when your a homemaker.


WARNING***********Other states that you may move to (ie Texas) can screw you real bad.

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Posted by citycrab705

i was hesitant to respond but i will,
yes we are getting a prenup, i was not happy at all at first but i understand now
fh owns a business he started from scratch and has seen friends lose it all in a divorce, i always told him i would sign anything he wanted saying i wouldn't touch his business,
but it helps me too, i am not responsible for any debts he may incur due to the business
i think it is an extremely personal choice and depends on your situation and if you have assets to protect

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FH owns a business as well, that he started from scratch and put all his hard work energy into. I want him to know in case of anything i would not go after his business.

Also FH has alot of inheritence and family money, i think its only fair for him to protect that money. People dont realize, say your married 10 years and your parents leave you their daughter their home, and then god forbid you divorce. He could get those profits from the sale.

People say they dont have any money, but think of the future and what you could inherit.
This happened to my mother.

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Posted by MaureenM618

We won't be having one because we have nothing to protect. Between the two of us we barely have 2 dimes to rub together,

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Ditto, we didn't do one and we didn't even discuss it. It makes sense for certain couples who have something to protect, but for us it just wasn't even a thought.

Just chiming in on the inheritance issue.

Once you are married you have marital property and you still can maintain separate property.

In New York separate property includes many things but most important for this thread it includes property acquired before the marriage and property acquired by devise, bequest, descent (i.e., an inheritance).

Separate property also includes property acquired in exchange for separate property such as using the inheritance to buy separate property such as rental property. The income produced by a separate property investment will be considered separate property, so long as it is not “commingled” with marital property.

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Posted by winterwhite

I agree with Kb.
here's why:

1- 50% of couples end in divorce

2 People with pre-nups do NOT have higher divorce rates.

3- Even if your still in school, in NY your degree in considered an asset (that he can take a portion of in event of a split). Especially if your married during the granting of the degree, or he supported you through school.

4- your condo you owned before the marriage can easily turn into his if he puts effort into improving the place........beware when you ask him tile your bathroom........he gets a percent of that appreciation.

5-- once he starts paying the mortgage with you on YOUR place the court can force a sale of your precious home, if you are w/o money to buy out his share in a fair split.

4- he is under no obligation to support you financially during the course of your marriage. He can buy playstation 3 tomorrow, and not give you money for new rainboots, after yours are so worn out that they have holes in them.

5- it not just about money, are you prepared to lose primary custody of your children if it gets real real real spiteful? Most men don't fight for custody, but when they do, they win more often than woman.


To be fair here are the cons:

1- if you can afford a good lawyer, NY has equitable distribution, which means a court will look at what is the most fair in the split...........but keep in mind this can be regardless of who's name the car is in. And affording a good lawyer is a really big IF, when your a homemaker.


WARNING***********Other states that you may move to (ie Texas) can screw you real bad.

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I've gotta admit, I think I'm split down the middle on this one. Personally, I'm choosing to be idealistic rather then realistic on this. I don't even want to entertain the thought of my FH leaving--and I trust him enough not to be spiteful. I just feel like I definitely know my fiance enough to know that he wouldn't do anything to hurt me. Oh and just a quick point about losing custody?? I've witnessed many many custody battles, and the father almost NEVER wins (just in my experiences)

Despite the reasons above, here are my thoughts:

1) For me, asking for a prenup or being asked implies DOUBT. There is absolutely NO DOUBT in my mind that FH and I will stay together forever. Talking about a prenup is such a downer, in my opinion.

2) When you get engaged to someone, I assume that you love them and KNOW them. Therefore, you can judge if this person would actively seek money or property from you if there is a divorce. If you think they're capable of taking something that they're not entitled to, then I suggest that you either break up or you sign a prenup.

3) My issue is with risk. Marriage does entail risk. Everything worth something has a risk associated with it. What I am saying is that no marriage should need a pre-nup. Why? Because a marriage is a life-long committment - that is what it means. If there is any reason to belive otherwise, then DON'T get married! I think it's simple. If you can't commit 'forever' then don't. If your partner understands you and understands your relationship, there shouldn't be a problem.

4) The argument of 'what if' - What if you died tomorrow, what if this, what if that - a person can't and shouldn't go around wondering whether bad things are going to happen - because they will.
I am saying you can't go into a marriage and wonder 'What if it doesn't work 20 years from now?' You need to go into a marriage and wonder 'How am I going to make my marriage work 20 years from now?'

5) Nobody HAS to get married. If you do choose to do so, it should be with the understanding that it is not a joyride which you can get off of at any time if things become a little uncomfortable. That sort of attitude is exactly WHY I think the divorce rate is so high in the first place. If you go into it with the idea in mind that it's ok to leave at some point, you're not going to be willing to put in the work necessary to maintain your marriage. The whole POINT of marriage is that both partners make sacrifices (not sleeping with other people, sharing financial responsibilities, etc.) in order to gain certain benefits (care in times of individual need, security, trust, intimacy, a stable child-rearing environment, etc.) The contract you're entering into is a lifetime contract, that's simply what marriage is. This means that if things get rough at some point, you work through it, not cut and run.

6) If your sole concern is 'if things don't work out, whaa whaa whaa, I want to keep my money,' then please do the courts and the institution of marriage a favor and DON'T GET MARRIED. If things 'don't work out', that means you need to find what's wrong and fix it, not bail out and find the next new thing. If you do choose to bail, you deserve whatever alimony spanking you get, because you've violated a trust made with your partner. People don't get divorced because they 'grow apart'. People get divorced due to greed, stubbornness, and ego. If you find yourself growing apart, that means it's time to look for ways to reconnect. If you're too stubborn to make some compromises and get reinvolved in your spouses life, then the divorce is due to YOUR greed, YOUR stubbornness, and YOUR ego.

For anyone that has a prenup, please don't take this personally. This is my opinion on the topic, nothing more. I'm just so tired of the 50% statistic and plan on being part of the 50% that stay together forever

I think it's great that a lot of women and men have faith that they will last forever, and I truly hope they're right. I know from people in my life it doesn't always work out that way because you can never predict how people change. I've seen spouses turn abusive, just freak out, and cheat (this particular situation was also because someone went off their meds). You can try to work through these things, but sometimes both people aren't on board, and you can NEVER predict that.

That being said, I'm on the fence. We don't have much now, and what we do have is nearly equal. But I want to at least look into it, because maybe we should have one. I, like many of you, have no doubt that we'll be together forever. However, I also know that people can change, and some things are irreparable.

I also think it's unwise to not consider the 'what if' situations. It's not a matter of waiting for bad things to happen, it's being prepared for if and when they do. For example (a little different situation), my parents keep putting off signing their will. God forbid something happens, the government gets to take a nice cut of their assets. FH's parents on the other hand have everything spelled out on their will. It's smart, not pessimistic, because someday they will pass on. I think with marriage it's similar - what if your spouse becomes an alcoholic and won't seek help, what if they become abusive? As much faith as you have in someone else, you just don't know. You can control yourself, not someone else.

I think most people go into marriage with the understanding that it's forever, but that doesn't always happen. And it's not always about ego or discomfort. Sometimes it's about addiction problems, abuse and cheating. You can try to make it work, you can stay by their side, but there's a point where if they don't care and don't want to fix the problems - there's nothing else you can do.

I really hope everyone has a beautiful and life long marriage. I also think that what one person considers smart another may consider doubt and that's fine.

It seems like part of this has to do with people's ideas about divorce. In the divorces I've observed I've never felt that one person is 'bailing' or that they didn't put 100% of their heart and energy into making things work. People do grow apart - life happens and people realize that they don't fulfill each others needs as much as they once thought they did.

I know neither me nor my DH will ever cheat or be exceptionally cruel or manipulative, but I don't know if someday my DH decides that he absolutely needs to live in Fiji to fulfill some desire. I might not be able to do that, and no matter how much I love him, my quality of life would be greatly diminished if I gave up my life and career here to move to Fiji. In that case, we would get an amicable divorce because we would realize that we were no longer able to support the other person in the way they wish to be supported.

I think that it's 100% better to get divorced than to live your life dissatisfied and feeling like your wishes and needs aren't being fulfilled. Children shouldn't grow up in a home where they see their parents constantly sacrificing and unhappy and without a way to achieve their dreams and goals.

I do not believe that we will ever get divorced, and I love my DH and the best thing I've ever done in life is marry him. But because of that, I want him to achieve everything he's ever dreamed of, and he wishes the same for me, and there is a .01% chance that in the future that means we let each other go so we can live a complete and explored life.

I admire people who get divorces who have done extensive reflection and realized they cannot give their partner what they need - and again, in every divorce I've seen no one has bailed or taken the easy way out.

bwhahahahahahaha

sorry, but no. he makes more then me now, but we were both broke when we met. it never ever came up. except when my bil tells me that i marride him for his money. riiiiiight. the $10.50 an hour he was pulling down was what i really went for

Nope! I may be wearing my 'wedding goggles', but I truly feel that this is it and we love thinking about growing old and wrinkley together!

We joke about it and say they are better for 2nd marriages!

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Posted by kb

It seems like part of this has to do with people's ideas about divorce. In the divorces I've observed I've never felt that one person is 'bailing' or that they didn't put 100% of their heart and energy into making things work. People do grow apart - life happens and people realize that they don't fulfill each others needs as much as they once thought they did.

I know neither me nor my DH will ever cheat or be exceptionally cruel or manipulative, but I don't know if someday my DH decides that he absolutely needs to live in Fiji to fulfill some desire. I might not be able to do that, and no matter how much I love him, my quality of life would be greatly diminished if I gave up my life and career here to move to Fiji. In that case, we would get an amicable divorce because we would realize that we were no longer able to support the other person in the way they wish to be supported.

I think that it's 100% better to get divorced than to live your life dissatisfied and feeling like your wishes and needs aren't being fulfilled. Children shouldn't grow up in a home where they see their parents constantly sacrificing and unhappy and without a way to achieve their dreams and goals.

I do not believe that we will ever get divorced, and I love my DH and the best thing I've ever done in life is marry him. But because of that, I want him to achieve everything he's ever dreamed of, and he wishes the same for me, and there is a .01% chance that in the future that means we let each other go so we can live a complete and explored life.

I admire people who get divorces who have done extensive reflection and realized they cannot give their partner what they need - and again, in every divorce I've seen no one has bailed or taken the easy way out.

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I fully agree with everything your saying. I'll join in with my fellow attorneys here and say I am a lawyer too and I'm not getting one BUT the only reason I'm not is b/c my FH had a major career change. When I met him he had a very successful GC business. He made a LOT more money than I did. BUT, if we ever got divorced, I would have lost out big time. He probably could have even gotten me to pay spousal support!

People say 'oh I would never go after $'...yeah, that's what you say NOW. What happens when your married for 10 years with 3 kids and you find out your spouse is living some life you didn't knwo about? You might not be so amicable then as you will be bitter.

You never know what can happen. Just like I didn't know my FH would sell his business and go a completely different career route! Now I don't feel a need for a pre-nup.

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Posted by Michy

I must be really nieve but when I think of prenups I only think of celebrities.

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This is where it originates from! the rich & famous!

We personally chose NOT to have a prenup.

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Posted by mrsh2b
People say 'oh I would never go after $'...yeah, that's what you say NOW. What happens when your married for 10 years with 3 kids and you find out your spouse is living some life you didn't knwo about? You might not be so amicable then as you will be bitter.

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That is my exact fear. I always say to FH he is the more spiteful one, and he would never have to worry about me trying to take everything he's worth. But in all honesty, I'm not in that situation, not even close, so how can I seriously say I'm not going to be bitter? I have no clue what it's like.