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Shocked!
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Re: Shocked!
I understand where you're coming from and I actually am not using HCTB (for other reasons) but there are lots of 'things' in modern culture, etc. that had some basis in Nazism and Anti-Semetism (sp?)
For example:
Did you know Henry Ford was an Nazi sympathizer and anti-semite? Why do you think Schindler's List aired commercial free on Network TV at the expense of the Ford motor company? Should we all stop driving Ford's?
Hitler was behind the creation of the Volkswagen as a means of helping the German economy. Guess we should stop driving those too.
Oh! Hitler was also behind Kindergarten (<--German word). Guess we should all drag our kids out of school and not send them until 1st grade?
If we really thought about the origins of every custom or product we use in our every day lives and stopped using them because it is unconscionable to do so, we'd be cutting so much out of our every day lives. I just think there are better ways to make advances in society then to stress over a song.
JMHO
For example:
Did you know Henry Ford was an Nazi sympathizer and anti-semite? Why do you think Schindler's List aired commercial free on Network TV at the expense of the Ford motor company? Should we all stop driving Ford's?
Hitler was behind the creation of the Volkswagen as a means of helping the German economy. Guess we should stop driving those too.
Oh! Hitler was also behind Kindergarten (<--German word). Guess we should all drag our kids out of school and not send them until 1st grade?
If we really thought about the origins of every custom or product we use in our every day lives and stopped using them because it is unconscionable to do so, we'd be cutting so much out of our every day lives. I just think there are better ways to make advances in society then to stress over a song.
JMHO
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Re: Shocked!
very well said!
I think both posts are very well said. I am Jewish yet I never knew that HCTB was by an anti semite.
I think both posts are very well said. I am Jewish yet I never knew that HCTB was by an anti semite.
Member since
Re: Shocked!
I'm not saying that at all actually. Its about knowing the meaning of the song and what it was used for before blindly choosing to use just b/c it is a tradition.
The song was written and used in a opera 'bedroom' scene.
I just think one should understand the meaning of the song before they choose it as 'the' song on their special day. I am just surprised that it is still so widely used! Thats all really.
The song was written and used in a opera 'bedroom' scene.
I just think one should understand the meaning of the song before they choose it as 'the' song on their special day. I am just surprised that it is still so widely used! Thats all really.
Member since
Re: Shocked!
Posted by mls282
I'm not saying that at all actually. Its about knowing the menaing of the song and what it was used for before blindly choosing to use just b/c it is a tradition.
The song was written and used in a opera 'bedroom' scene.
I just think one should understand the meaning of the song before the choose it as 'the' song on their special day. Thats all.
I see your point totally. I think quite a few brides do know about the origins. I've read several Jewish Brides threads and it's an absolute no-no for a traditional Jewish ceremony.
Member since
Re: Shocked!
Posted by Sharron70
Posted by mls282
I'm not saying that at all actually. Its about knowing the menaing of the song and what it was used for before blindly choosing to use just b/c it is a tradition.
The song was written and used in a opera 'bedroom' scene.
I just think one should understand the meaning of the song before the choose it as 'the' song on their special day. Thats all.
I see your point totally. I think quite a few brides do know about the origins. I've read several Jewish Brides threads and it's an absolute no-no for a traditional Jewish ceremony.
I see your point too. I am sorry if it seemed I was making a big deal over it. But just still surprised its used so often when there are soo many other beautiful songs.
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Re: Shocked!
Posted by mls282
I see your point too. I am sorry if it seemed I was making a big deal over it. But just still surprised its used so often when there are soo many other beautiful songs.
It's all good! For instance, we're playing for our last song of the night 'One Cup of Coffee' by Bob Marley. The song starts out 'One . . . cup of coffee . . . before I go' - I thought it was perfect! Then I actually listened to the words and it's a break up song! I told FH and all he said was 'So, maybe we'll be broken up by then'.
Smart arse!
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Re: Shocked!
I think you are shocked and appalled at something that most non-Jewish brides no little about. You are saying your rant like people are using that song knowing Wagner was a Nazi. As a previous poster replied, if we want to stop using everything that was developed from someone who was an anti-Semite, racist, or a chauvinist pig, there wouldn't be much left in this world. I understand Wagner was who he was and believed what he believed, but it is a beautiful song and people have the right to use it.
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Re: Shocked!
Posted by mls282
Posted by Sharron70
Posted by mls282
I'm not saying that at all actually. Its about knowing the menaing of the song and what it was used for before blindly choosing to use just b/c it is a tradition.
The song was written and used in a opera 'bedroom' scene.
I just think one should understand the meaning of the song before the choose it as 'the' song on their special day. Thats all.
I see your point totally. I think quite a few brides do know about the origins. I've read several Jewish Brides threads and it's an absolute no-no for a traditional Jewish ceremony.
I see your point too. I am sorry if it seemed I was making a big deal over it. But just still surprised its used so often when there are soo many other beautiful songs.
I feel your original post comes across as judgmental towards anyone who would choose that song for their walk down the aisle. I think of this site as a place to come for wedding planning support, referrals, ideas and a little female cyber-bonding, not a place to judge others on incendiary topics like religious persecution or politics. We all have our traditions and you should be respectful of others' traditions as well (meaning, the desire to play that song during the ceremony out of tradition, irrespective of its origins as I'm sure no bride chooses the song to offend anyone).
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Re: Shocked!
I'm not using that song but I didn't know about that until someone posted something the pother day about Jewish ceremonies not allowing it.
I think most people just don't know. How often do you look into the back ground of composers![]()
I think most people just don't know. How often do you look into the back ground of composers
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Re: Shocked!
Posted by karabara
Posted by mls282
Posted by Sharron70
Posted by mls282
I'm not saying that at all actually. Its about knowing the menaing of the song and what it was used for before blindly choosing to use just b/c it is a tradition.
The song was written and used in a opera 'bedroom' scene.
I just think one should understand the meaning of the song before the choose it as 'the' song on their special day. Thats all.
I see your point totally. I think quite a few brides do know about the origins. I've read several Jewish Brides threads and it's an absolute no-no for a traditional Jewish ceremony.
I see your point too. I am sorry if it seemed I was making a big deal over it. But just still surprised its used so often when there are soo many other beautiful songs.
I feel your original post comes across as judgmental towards anyone who would choose that song for their walk down the aisle. I think of this site as a place to come for wedding planning support, referrals, ideas and a little female cyber-bonding, not a place to judge others on incendiary topics like religious persecution or politics. We all have our traditions and you should be respectful of others' traditions as well (meaning, the desire to play that song during the ceremony out of tradition, irrespective of its origins as I'm sure no bride chooses the song to offend anyone).
Very well put
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Re: Shocked!
I'm Jewish and would not be offended. I had family killed by Nazis, so I think I should probably be offended if I could see reason to.
Being the art world a little, I've learned, that even though you hate the artists for what they believe, what they do, what they are, you can't run away from the fact that they suffer from the same primitive human conditions. Love, joy, pain, sorrow, happiness, etc, etc. As humans art can be an expression of our most common of emotions, and its something we all as humans share.
In a way, I think discriminating from music just because it was written by Nazis is kind of the same as Nazis discriminating music because it was written by Jews. Someone has to be the better guy, or there is no understanding, no growth, no evolution.
That said, I think its a cheesy song and probably wont use it. I'm doing some Italian Fascist one instead. lol
JMHO
Being the art world a little, I've learned, that even though you hate the artists for what they believe, what they do, what they are, you can't run away from the fact that they suffer from the same primitive human conditions. Love, joy, pain, sorrow, happiness, etc, etc. As humans art can be an expression of our most common of emotions, and its something we all as humans share.
In a way, I think discriminating from music just because it was written by Nazis is kind of the same as Nazis discriminating music because it was written by Jews. Someone has to be the better guy, or there is no understanding, no growth, no evolution.
That said, I think its a cheesy song and probably wont use it. I'm doing some Italian Fascist one instead. lol
JMHO
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Re: Shocked!
Posted by yswedding
I'm Jewish and would not be offended. I had family killed by Nazis, so I think I should probably be offended if I could see reason to.
Being the art world a little, I've learned, that even though you hate the artists for what they believe, what they do, what they are, you can't run away from the fact that they suffer from the same primitive human conditions. Love, joy, pain, sorrow, happiness, etc, etc. As humans art can be an expression of our most common of emotions, and its something we all as humans share.
In a way, I think discriminating from music just because it was written by Nazis is kind of the same as Nazis discriminating music because it was written by Jews. Someone has to be the better guy, or there is no understanding, no growth, no evolution.
That said, I think its a cheesy song and probably wont use it. I'm doing some Italian Fascist one instead. lol
JMHO
VERY well said!!!
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Re: Shocked!
Posted by yswedding
I'm doing some Italian Fascist one instead. lol
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Re: Shocked!
sorry, but i think that is ridiculous![]()
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Re: Shocked!
Posted by mls282
Posted by Sharron70
Posted by mls282
I'm not saying that at all actually. Its about knowing the menaing of the song and what it was used for before blindly choosing to use just b/c it is a tradition.
The song was written and used in a opera 'bedroom' scene.
I just think one should understand the meaning of the song before the choose it as 'the' song on their special day. Thats all.
I see your point totally. I think quite a few brides do know about the origins. I've read several Jewish Brides threads and it's an absolute no-no for a traditional Jewish ceremony.
I see your point too. I am sorry if it seemed I was making a big deal over it. But just still surprised its used so often when there are soo many other beautiful songs.
Like somebody else already said in this thread. You act as if brides choosing this song think about the origin of the song. The only thing they do think about the song is the tradition of it. Many have no idea about its origin or know much about the composer. The only thing known is that it is the song used for many generations for the bride to walk down the aisle.
If you want to think about the origin of things, im curious if you ever owned a Louis Vuitton bag? and are as against people having one, would you ever drive or have you ever driven a BMW, VW, or Mercedes? or do you have any krups products at home, any on your registry? IF youre going to hate things for their origin then you can do it about so many other things in this world.
To say you're shocked and appalled and post this to put others down for their decision, a decision that I am sure most have no idea about the origins, was the wrong way to go about it. If you wanted to inform people and just put it out there then that would've been different.
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Re: Shocked!
Wait, I'm confused, I'm no opera buff but wasn't Wagner loooong deceased by the time the Nazis rose to power? The opera Lohengrin is from the mid-1800s, I think? So are we saying Wagner was a Nazi, or the Nazi's appropriated his music??? If its the latter, how can he control that? Either way, I think people have a right to use whatever they want, really, but I will point out that there are PLEEEENTY of anti-Semitic composers whose work is ROUTINELY used in wedding celebrations, I wouldn't let it work me up too much.
And as for chauvinism, all I can say is![]()
-- can you point out ONE artist (or one MAN for that matter) from the same era who WASN'T what you'd call chauvinistic??? Is that valid reason to toss out the entire body of work of some of history's greatest writers, thinkers, composers, etc? Women's lib may be a historical inevitability, but poor Wagner was born over 100 years before the idea was even a whisper in some housefrau's ear...
Don't even get me started on my own church's (Catholic) stance regarding women and Jews throughout history, certainly not the stuff that progress is made of!
While I understand your feelings about the song, I think your post could be more effectively presented if it had been written from a personal viewpoint, i.e., why YOU choose not to use the song, IMHO...
And as for chauvinism, all I can say is
Don't even get me started on my own church's (Catholic) stance regarding women and Jews throughout history, certainly not the stuff that progress is made of!
While I understand your feelings about the song, I think your post could be more effectively presented if it had been written from a personal viewpoint, i.e., why YOU choose not to use the song, IMHO...
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Re: Shocked!
Posted by Espo22
Posted by mls282
Posted by Sharron70
Posted by mls282
I'm not saying that at all actually. Its about knowing the menaing of the song and what it was used for before blindly choosing to use just b/c it is a tradition.
The song was written and used in a opera 'bedroom' scene.
I just think one should understand the meaning of the song before the choose it as 'the' song on their special day. Thats all.
I see your point totally. I think quite a few brides do know about the origins. I've read several Jewish Brides threads and it's an absolute no-no for a traditional Jewish ceremony.
I see your point too. I am sorry if it seemed I was making a big deal over it. But just still surprised its used so often when there are soo many other beautiful songs.
Like somebody else already said in this thread. You act as if brides choosing this song think about the origin of the song. The only thing they do think about the song is the tradition of it. Many have no idea about its origin or know much about the composer. The only thing known is that it is the song used for many generations for the bride to walk down the aisle.
If you want to think about the origin of things, im curious if you ever owned a Louis Vuitton bag? and are as against people having one, would you ever drive or have you ever driven a BMW, VW, or Mercedes? or do you have any krups products at home, any on your registry? IF youre going to hate things for their origin then you can do it about so many other things in this world.
To say you're shocked and appalled and post this to put others down for their decision, a decision that I am sure most have no idea about the origins, was the wrong way to go about it. If you wanted to inform people and just put it out there then that would've been different.
I am sorry if I 'offended' anyone with my post. I was simply just venting. I have been to a lot of weddings lately and was surprised at how often it was played to be honest.
I know most churches and temples will not allow this song to be used. And in Europe I know this tradition has been long since gone. I thought by now the same was true for here. That's all.
I apologize if I offended anyone...
P.S. I don't have a ford, VW, and I have never owned a Louis Vutton bag... LOL!
No krups either.
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Re: Shocked!
Posted by Colette
Wait, I'm confused, I'm no opera buff but wasn't Wagner loooong deceased by the time the Nazis rose to power? The opera Lohengrin is from the mid-1800s, I think? So are we saying Wagner was a Nazi, or the Nazi's appropriated his music??? If its the latter, how can he control that? Either way, I think people have a right to use whatever they want, really, but I will point out that there are PLEEEENTY of anti-Semitic composers whose work is ROUTINELY used in wedding celebrations, I wouldn't let it work me up too much.
And as for chauvinism, all I can say is-- can you point out ONE artist (or one MAN for that matter) from the same era who WASN'T what you'd call chauvinistic??? Is that valid reason to toss out the entire body of work of some of history's greatest writers, thinkers, composers, etc? Women's lib may be a historical inevitability, but poor Wagner was born over 100 years before the idea was even a whisper in some housefrau's ear...
Don't even get me started on my own church's (Catholic) stance regarding women and Jews throughout history, certainly not the stuff that progress is made of!
While I understand your feelings about the song, I think your post could be more effectively presented if it had been written from a personal viewpoint, i.e., why YOU choose not to use the song, IMHO...
You are correct. His works occured before 'Nazi-sim' as it is known existed. Historically his works though and their deep anti-semitism expressed in them are seen as the root for Nazi-ism to take hold and supposedly inspired Hitler.
from my understanding of what I learned... that is.
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Re: Shocked!
Posted by Colette
Wait, I'm confused, I'm no opera buff but wasn't Wagner loooong deceased by the time the Nazis rose to power? The opera Lohengrin is from the mid-1800s, I think? So are we saying Wagner was a Nazi, or the Nazi's appropriated his music??? If its the latter, how can he control that?
Just for the sake of historic clarification - no he wasn't a 'Nazi' per se, and yes he was dead long before the rise of the Nazi 'movement' (so to speak) but he was an anti semite
