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spinoff from sandals-- bigoted on the BHB board

Original post by butterfly20

How come there is still the NAACP(national advancement association colored people)... and there is not an NAAWP?

because there are alot of poor white people that could use the help.....

*edited to say, i dont mean to offend anyone...



MCDO15 Posted:

Re: spinoff from sandals-- bigoted on the BHB board

well, those are just my thoughts, and being black and my FW being white, i had(having) to deal with unneeded drama. that is a poor sterotype i mention but if someone comes across a successful black, people think, oh how did that person become that. 'EDIT - heck, i do that' The baggy pants thing that somone else mention is another.

oct2004bride - i do understand if you can relate but you 'probally' will never live like that. I'm not misinformed and not misguided. What it really comes down to, working hard. sucks that people get veiwed that way but instaed of goign an extra mile, you have to go 2. I don't need to ask anyone that is black - african american to talk about it cause i lived it first hand. FW can vouch becuase she moved into my situation cause her family where she came from had everything but freedom to do what you want. i don't need to explain but i just feel, some of you well never get the big picture.

im glad people are learning and makes their life better in the future.

main reason why i posted (maybe i should of read more of everybody responses) is that many talk about stuff but don't always know the whole truth (truth meaning you lived it, not witness it) i can tell you a good story but livign a story is another thing.
LovelyL Posted:

Re: spinoff from sandals-- bigoted on the BHB board

For those of you who are opposed to affirmative action, it is somewhat ironic because----statistically, affirmative action has helped women far more than any other 'minority' group!
janwinterbridejoy Posted:

Re: spinoff from sandals-- bigoted on the BHB board

Posted by xjulietx

Can someone please tell me what 'white English' is?


lol
steph4777 Posted:

Re: spinoff from sandals-- bigoted on the BHB board

Posted by oct.2004bride

Posted by steph4777

Posted by butterfly20

plus there are some colored people out there who still blaim the current white people for the slavery that happened over 100 years ago, the current people werent around 100 years ago yet they get harassed over it...


We haven't been 'colored' since 1970... We are now African-Americans.

Personally i think referring to black people as 'African-americans' Was stupid. I work with a lot of black people and have asked them, if you are from haiti why do we call you african-american. It implies all black people are from Africa. ANd they aren't. The are from all over (Bahamas, Haiti, Jamiaca, Europe, etc) and referring to them as Africans is WRONG!


I was being sarcastic. 'Colored people' is just not something you hear much today.

I personally don't really use the term AA or refer to myself as AA. My family is from Haiti, so I understand what you are saying.
KarenK122 Posted:

Re: spinoff from sandals-- bigoted on the BHB board

I think this is a very hot topic but here are my opinions and I do not mean to offended anyone at all : )

I am totally against affirmative action. I believe it should be the persons skills that lands them a job or a spot in a college, not what race they are or where they grew up. If someone does not qualify on their own merits to get a postion how are they going to succeed or are they just going to coast along and pass or get promoted because of affirmative action. Just a side note story....my ex husband was on the list to become a Suffolk County PO. The last class was being taken from the list he was on and they were only taking 25 or so. He was number 11. He went through the physical and metal tests and passed them all, so it was assumed he was going into the next class....but what happened, they were pressured by affirmative action to use only the first 10 people on the list then take minorities for the rest of the class. We know this for a fact because I was going to do a class action suit against the county but my ex talked me out of it. So is that fair that he got screwed so the state can make a quota? Sorry so long but after 6 years it still irks me.

Now I'm all for scholorships for people that can not afford to attend college but I think it should be across the board.....black, white, green, yellow, male, female, whatever.

I'm done now : )
steph4777 Posted:

Re: spinoff from sandals-- bigoted on the BHB board

Posted by KarenK122

I think this is a very hot topic but here are my opinions and I do not mean to offended anyone at all : )

I am totally against affirmative action. I believe it should be the persons skills that lands them a job or a spot in a college, not what race they are or where they grew up. If someone does not qualify on their own merits to get a postion how are they going to succeed or are they just going to coast along and pass or get promoted because of affirmative action. Just a side note story....my ex husband was on the list to become a Suffolk County PO. The last class was being taken from the list he was on and they were only taking 25 or so. He was number 11. He went through the physical and metal tests and passed them all, so it was assumed he was going into the next class....but what happened, they were pressured by affirmative action to use only the first 10 people on the list then take minorities for the rest of the class. We know this for a fact because I was going to do a class action suit against the county but my ex talked me out of it. So is that fair that he got screwed so the state can make a quota? Sorry so long but after 6 years it still irks me.

Now I'm all for scholorships for people that can not afford to attend college but I think it should be across the board.....black, white, green, yellow, male, female, whatever.

I'm done now : )


You know in a perfect world where all people (black, white, women, gay, etc... ) are equal programs like affirmative action would not be needed. But the reality is that discrimination still exists today and things are not equal.

As a woman, you might have benefited (or will in the future) from an affirmative action initiative, without even knowing it.
KarenK122 Posted:

Re: spinoff from sandals-- bigoted on the BHB board

As a woman, you might have benefited (or will in the future) from an affirmative action initiative, without even knowing it.
_________

I have not and I would not take a position that I was given just because I was a woman. I have worked in the corporate world for over 14 years and yes I have seen women and other minorities get ahead just because of that, but I don't agree. It is just my beleif that everyone should get ahead by what they put into something not just because of what they are.

Of course there are always different arguements to this and there are always exceptions to the rule, but as a whole that is what I believe : ).
RedHead Posted:

Re: spinoff from sandals-- bigoted on the BHB board

Posted by MCDO15

well, those are just my thoughts, and being black and my FW being white, i had(having) to deal with unneeded drama. that is a poor sterotype i mention but if someone comes across a successful black, people think, oh how did that person become that. 'EDIT - heck, i do that' The baggy pants thing that somone else mention is another.

oct2004bride - i do understand if you can relate but you 'probally' will never live like that. I'm not misinformed and not misguided. What it really comes down to, working hard. sucks that people get veiwed that way but instaed of goign an extra mile, you have to go 2. I don't need to ask anyone that is black - african american to talk about it cause i lived it first hand. FW can vouch becuase she moved into my situation cause her family where she came from had everything but freedom to do what you want. i don't need to explain but i just feel, some of you well never get the big picture.

im glad people are learning and makes their life better in the future.

main reason why i posted (maybe i should of read more of everybody responses) is that many talk about stuff but don't always know the whole truth (truth meaning you lived it, not witness it) i can tell you a good story but livign a story is another thing.


No i will never be black but i don't have to be to listen and to understand. It is not fair that someone has to go 2 miles as opposed to the average 1, which to me only proves my point more! WHy should a black person have to worl 2x as hard as a white person to get the same things?
MegLehner Posted:

Re: spinoff from sandals-- bigoted on the BHB board

Posted by KarenK122

As a woman, you might have benefited (or will in the future) from an affirmative action initiative, without even knowing it.
_________

I have not and I would not take a position that I was given just because I was a woman. I have worked in the corporate world for over 14 years and yes I have seen women and other minorities get ahead just because of that, but I don't agree. It is just my beleif that everyone should get ahead by what they put into something not just because of what they are.
QUOTE]
It is a common misconception that afirmative action gives jobs or admission to minority students/employees that do not have as high a grade or performance rating as majority student/employee. However, this is unlikely the case in most situtations. As I posted before the only affirmative action programs that have passed the Supreme Court are those that use a point system. In other words a college or employer will set out a minimum requirement for a position (Like you have to have between 3.0 and 3.5 GPA to go to this school) well there are alot of people who fit into that catergory. So the school can give additional points for things. However, a school cannot give a disportionately high point score for race/gender then it does for other things. A school cant give 10 points for race/gender and only 3 for an essay. but it can give 10 for an essay and only 3 for race/gender. The SC said rule is is that race cannot be dispositive and that every student has to be looked at on an individual basis. Quota systems are illegal and not used for fear of huge lawsuits. Therefore students would not be getting ahead because of their race, they have the requisite scores and they are getting additional points for their background, family situation, xtra activities, work experience, sports, etc.
LovelyL Posted:

Re: spinoff from sandals-- bigoted on the BHB board

Yes---that I was just thinking. Quotas are illegal. And when companies are doing their affirmative action planning, they are NOT required to meet certain quotas. Companies are supposed to set goals that will make their employee population representative of the real population of the community where the organization is based.

If these companies do not reach their goals they are not penalized, as long as it is evident that they have made effort to do so. This is why companies keep things like applicant flow data.
xjulietx Posted:

Re: spinoff from sandals-- bigoted on the BHB board

Okay, I just read the definitions of black and white English and I think it is ridiculous. If Ebonics should be incorporated into school testing, then what about any other slang that developed as a result of a culture? There are plenty of people from other countries who speak a slang of their own at home and learn correct English grammar at school so that they can achieve more.

groovypeg Posted:

Re: spinoff from sandals-- bigoted on the BHB board

Posted by xjulietx

Okay, I just read the definitions of black and white English and I think it is ridiculous. If Ebonics should be incorporated into school testing, then what about any other slang that developed as a result of a culture? There are plenty of people from other countries who speak a slang of their own at home and learn correct English grammar at school so that they can achieve more.


according to that page, it is a dialect. nowhere did i read that it should be incorporated into school testing. what it did say is this:

No proposal suggested actually teaching AAVE or treating it as socially prestigious as standard American English. Rather, teachers were encouraged to accept that the errors in standard American English that their students made were not the result of lack of intelligence or lack of effort, but rather because the language that they normally use is grammatically different from that of SAE. Instead of teaching standard English not by proscribing non-standard characteristics, the idea was that standard English could be taught by showing students how to translate expressions from AAVE to standard American English.


ETA: my undergrad degree was in socio-cultural anthropology. My thesis was about this.
marymoon Posted:

Re: spinoff from sandals-- bigoted on the BHB board

A few responses to a few different things.

The word 'black' , used to describe dark skinned people of african descent, cameout of the black power movement in the 60's.

Definitely. I kind of had the impression that people who spoke 'ebonics' were poorly educated, but then I worked with a woman who spoke that way and was SO intelligent. it's just a taught dialect. However, the fact is, if you want to succeed you need to know Standard English, so something has to be done to make sure that everyone is taught this.
Becky Posted:

Re: spinoff from sandals-- bigoted on the BHB board

I am shocked at some of the borderline racist comments that have been made in this thread.

First of all, there is no such thing as 'reverse discrimination' against white. White people will never understand the prejudice that African-Americans have HISTORICALLY dealt with and its lingering effects. 'Separate but equal' was still practiced in this country until my parents were teenagers. So even though we may not recall such terrible practices in our lifetime, that does not make them ancient history.

Afirmative action is meant to help minorities speed up the process of becoming equal. I believe it was LBJ who explained it in this way - if you start a race and some of the contestants are chained to the ground when the race begins, you can't unchain them two hours into the race, tell them to run and then call the race fair. It isn't just *poof* everyone is equal.

You may feel that affirmative action hurts white people, but even with all of the years that it has been around, white people still statistically have better jobs and make more money than African-Americans even in the same fields, men still statistically have better jobs and make more money that women even in the same fields and being an African-American woman is stoll considered the double whammy statistically because they have the race AND gender disadvantage.



cluelessbride Posted:

Re: spinoff from sandals-- bigoted on the BHB board

Posted by Becky

I am shocked at some of the borderline racist comments that have been made in this thread.

First of all, there is no such thing as 'reverse discrimination' against white. White people will never understand the prejudice that African-Americans have HISTORICALLY dealt with and its lingering effects. 'Separate but equal' was still practiced in this country until my parents were teenagers. So even though we may not recall such terrible practices in our lifetime, that does not make them ancient history.

Afirmative action is meant to help minorities speed up the process of becoming equal. I believe it was LBJ who explained it in this way - if you start a race and some of the contestants are chained to the ground when the race begins, you can't unchain them two hours into the race, tell them to run and then call the race fair. It isn't just *poof* everyone is equal.

You may feel that affirmative action hurts white people, but even with all of the years that it has been around, white people still statistically have better jobs and make more money than African-Americans even in the same fields, men still statistically have better jobs and make more money that women even in the same fields and being an African-American woman is stoll considered the double whammy statistically because they have the race AND gender disadvantage.






DITTO!!
xjulietx Posted:

Re: spinoff from sandals-- bigoted on the BHB board

Posted by groovypeg

Posted by xjulietx

Okay, I just read the definitions of black and white English and I think it is ridiculous. If Ebonics should be incorporated into school testing, then what about any other slang that developed as a result of a culture? There are plenty of people from other countries who speak a slang of their own at home and learn correct English grammar at school so that they can achieve more.


according to that page, it is a dialect. nowhere did i read that it should be incorporated into school testing. what it did say is this:

No proposal suggested actually teaching AAVE or treating it as socially prestigious as standard American English. Rather, teachers were encouraged to accept that the errors in standard American English that their students made were not the result of lack of intelligence or lack of effort, but rather because the language that they normally use is grammatically different from that of SAE. Instead of teaching standard English not by proscribing non-standard characteristics, the idea was that standard English could be taught by showing students how to translate expressions from AAVE to standard American English.


ETA: my undergrad degree was in socio-cultural anthropology. My thesis was about this.



Okay, so I read too quickly and remember things from years back when there was talk about using different tests.

But why excuse ebonics and not all forms of dialects and butchering of the English language that stem from a variety of languages? If my FH made continuous grammatical mistakes based on the fact that he is a native Polish speaker, he would be labeled as stupid. His parents say borrow for both lend and borrow and people think they sound uneducated when they say ' can you borrow me some money?' but that is just because there is only one word for it in Polish, with different connotation depending on the situation.

I understand that people from different cultures speak different dialects of English, but to excuse one group is unfair.

Please excuse me if some other groups dialectal influences have been excused, I didn't experience it in my high school.
xjulietx Posted:

Re: spinoff from sandals-- bigoted on the BHB board

I have another question?

If two students attend the same school, have similar family structures, have educated articulate parents and both speak grammatically correct English until High school and then the African American student decides that he/she wants to fit in with other AA students and decides to start using Ebonics (when he/she otherwise didn't), should they be excused for this behavior and have teachers say it is cultural?

I have seen this happen and wonder why intelligent kids decide to start speaking like this.

And I have seen this with white kids too.

Why????????
groovypeg Posted:

Re: spinoff from sandals-- bigoted on the BHB board

juliet i dont think you understand the difference between a dialect and slang.

dialect: A regional or social variety of a language distinguished by pronunciation, grammar, or vocabulary, especially a variety of speech differing from the standard literary language or speech pattern of the culture in which it exists: Cockney is a dialect of English.

slang: A kind of language occurring chiefly in casual and playful speech, made up typically of short-lived coinages and figures of speech that are deliberately used in place of standard terms for added raciness, humor, irreverence, or other effect.

although the differences may be hard to distinguish, they are different. you may see ebonics as being a slang, but many linguists have determined it to be a dialect of english, and in some cases, some believe it is a language. while agree tha it should not take the place of SE, if you are teaching in an area that primarily uses AAVE, then as a teacher you should learn about it and use it to produce change in your student's behavior.

your fh is not speaking a 'dialect of english' when he misuses verbs/nouns. he is just mis-translating words. thats it.

in spain, there are 4 major dialects of spanish, however many linguists believe they are separate languages. wouldnt it make sense that there are different dialects of english?
xjulietx Posted:

Re: spinoff from sandals-- bigoted on the BHB board

I am confused. I don't really understand the difference between a dialect and slang because to me, both of them stem from the standard, but one is considered more acceptable and the other is trendy and I think they both have the same roots.

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