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Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

Original post by marymoon

I'm not trying to imply that all Bush voters are ignorant or that there aren't legitimate reasons for voting for Bush, but the poll results are scary, not surprising, and true, based on my conversations with Bush voters....


OP-ED COLUMNIST
Voting Without the Facts
By BOB HERBERT

Published: November 8, 2004

E-mail: [email protected]



The so-called values issue, at least as it's being popularly tossed around, is overrated.

Last week's election was extremely close and a modest shift in any number of factors might have changed the outcome. If the weather had been better in Ohio. ...If the wait to get into the voting booth hadn't been so ungodly long in certain Democratic precincts. ... Or maybe if those younger voters had actually voted. ...

I think a case could be made that ignorance played at least as big a role in the election's outcome as values. A recent survey by the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland found that nearly 70 percent of President Bush's supporters believe the U.S. has come up with 'clear evidence' that Saddam Hussein was working closely with Al Qaeda. A third of the president's supporters believe weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq. And more than a third believe that a substantial majority of world opinion supported the U.S.-led invasion.

This is scary. How do you make a rational political pitch to people who have put that part of their brain on hold? No wonder Bush won.

The survey, and an accompanying report, showed that there's a fair amount of cluelessness in the ranks of the values crowd. The report said, 'It is clear that supporters of the president are more likely to have misperceptions than those who oppose him.'

I haven't heard any of the postelection commentators talk about ignorance and its effect on the outcome. It's all values, all the time. Traumatized Democrats are wringing their hands and trying to figure out how to appeal to voters who have arrogantly claimed the moral high ground and can't stop babbling about their self-proclaimed superiority. Potential candidates are boning up on new prayers and purchasing time-shares in front-row-center pews.

A more practical approach might be for Democrats to add teach-ins to their outreach efforts. Anything that shrinks the ranks of the clueless would be helpful.

If you don't think this values thing has gotten out of control, consider the lead paragraph of an op-ed article that ran in The LA. Times on Friday. It was written by Frank Pastore, a former major league pitcher who is now a host on the Christian talk-radio station KKLA.

'Christians, in politics as in evangelism,' said Mr. Pastore, 'are not against people or the world. But we are against false ideas that hold good people captive. On Tuesday, this nation rejected liberalism, primarily because liberalism has been taken captive by the left. Since 1968, the left has taken millions captive, and we must help those Democrats who truly want to be free to actually break free of this evil ideology.'

Mr. Pastore goes on to exhort Christian conservatives to reject any and all voices that might urge them 'to compromise with the vanquished.' How's that for values?

In The New York Times on Thursday, Richard Viguerie, the dean of conservative direct mail, declared, 'Now comes the revolution.' He said, 'Liberals, many in the media and inside the Republican Party, are urging the president to 'unite' the country by discarding the allies that earned him another four years.'

Mr. Viguerie, it is clear, will stand four-square against any such dangerous moves toward reconciliation.

You have to be careful when you toss the word values around. All values are not created equal. Some Democrats are casting covetous eyes on voters whose values, in many cases, are frankly repellent. Does it make sense for the progressive elements in our society to undermine their own deeply held beliefs in tolerance, fairness and justice in an effort to embrace those who deliberately seek to divide?

What the Democratic Party needs above all is a clear message and a bold and compelling candidate. The message has to convince Americans that they would be better off following a progressive Democratic vision of the future. The candidate has to be a person of integrity capable of earning the respect and the affection of the American people.

This is doable. Al Gore and John Kerry were less than sparkling candidates, and both came within a hair of defeating Mr. Bush.

What the Democrats don't need is a candidate who is willing to shape his or her values to fit the pundits' probably incorrect analysis of the last election. Values that pivot on a dime were not really values to begin with.

lanikai Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by ambersmom

Hey you were the one who used the term liberal as a broad ovearching generalization for Democrats. Glad you are willing to point out your own inconsistencies

What about the broad ovearching generalization of Republicans by calling them ignorant??



What's your point? Are you trying to dispute the meaning of the word ignorant?

ambersmom Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

Oh my..

I can't believe I have to explain this but anyway please try to follow along...

You have no problem pointing out when someone is making a general statement about the dems being 'liberal' yet you find no fault w/the Reps being called ignorant. Kettle, pot black...
marymoon Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by DjPiLL


Posted by lanikai


Posted by Russo'sbride

When it all the comes down to it Bush won and the republicans control the house and the senate.



That's true, but that's not the point of the post. Although he 'won' it scary to know that he won in part because some of his supporters were not able to distinguish fact from fiction.




FACT: I pay less taxes under the Bush law. Thats reason enough for him to get my vote.



SHUT UP about your TAXES Rich....GEEZ.... We ALL have heard 100 times about how you pay fewer taxes now... Bully for you.
DjPiLL Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by marymoon

SHUT UP about your TAXES Rich....GEEZ.... We ALL have heard 100 times about how you pay fewer taxes now... Bully for you.




I'll shut up once all the Kerry nut-huggers stop the whining that they lost. The start of this topic in this thread is a prime example of what I mean.

ambersmom Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

Telling someone to shut up when you post a topic that is open for debate to all does not sound very politically correct....

Sounds more like 'ignorance'...
marymoon Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

About Giuliani...MANY people here in NYC have LONG seen him as a megalomaniac, and you know what? I have NO question that he'll run for president in 2008 if his health holds up. I just don't see him garnering that much support, unless he continues his conservative swing that he's been off since he left City Hall. I definite;y wouldn't vote for him either way. He did a great job in getting crime off the NYC streets, but he also tried to suck away a lot of the city's character. But what bothers me about him the most is the conservative slant he's been on (how can this not portend running for office in the future?), and they way he really seems to have left NYC behind..

Also, I always hated him b/c he'd say the NYC schools were great, and his son was in a private school in NJ.
marymoon Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by ambersmom

Telling someone to shut up when you post a topic that is open for debate to all does not sound very politically correct....

Sounds more like 'ignorance'...




Holy cannoli,...I was KIDDING
DjPiLL Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by marymoon

Holy cannoli,...I was KIDDING




Hey Marymoon... guess what...





































































I am paying less taxes now. Hahaha.
marymoon Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

REALLY? I didn't know that....


How f-----g wonderful for you!
heidla Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

I accept the fact that Kerry lost this election. I refuse to cry out voter fraud because our voting system is so friggn' flawed it cuts both ways.

There are ignorant people on both sides of the fence. There are people who choose to vote based on one particular platform. That is not the way I choose to vote, but who am I to judge. Obviously this is the case because Bush's approval rating was below 50% on every major issue. This does not show ignorance it shows how different regions value different things.

Now, as far as 2008 goes. I like John McCain on Global Issues, but on Domestic issues he is anything but a 'Liberal Conservative'. He is pro-family and pro-life. That is not middle of the road to most Democrats.
lanikai Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by ambersmom

Oh my..

I can't believe I have to explain this but anyway please try to follow along...

You have no problem pointing out when someone is making a general statement about the dems being 'liberal' yet you find no fault w/the Reps being called ignorant. Kettle, pot black...



I understood what you said, but found your comparison unfounded.
lanikai Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

Maybe we should all agree to disagree on this for now. People are starting to take this personally.

myasmom Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

lol the seriousness started days ago. SOme people make points, others point fingers, name calling etc.. its sad. And honestly kind of an illustration if how the presidential campaign really was.
Russo'sbride Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by lesleyw


Posted by Russo'sbride

When you mentioned 'he won in part b/c some of his suppoters were not able to distinguish fact from fiction'. To me that is an opinion not a fact but you are entitled to it.



Actually, it's not her opinion; it's a statement based on a survey conducted by a reputable organization.



I don't what you mean by a reputable organization nor do I really care. Everybody is entitled to their opinion including the American people.
lesleyw Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by Russo'sbride


Posted by lesleyw


Posted by Russo'sbride

When you mentioned 'he won in part b/c some of his suppoters were not able to distinguish fact from fiction'. To me that is an opinion not a fact but you are entitled to it.



Actually, it's not her opinion; it's a statement based on a survey conducted by a reputable organization.



I don't what you mean by a reputable organization nor do I really care. Everybody is entitled to their opinion including the American people.



I'll explain. This post was originally based on an editorial that cited a survey from the Program on International Policy Attitudes which is affiliated with the University of Maryland. Among other things, the survey found that 72% of Bush supporters still believe that Iraq had WMDs or a major program to develop them even after the Dulfeur report disproved that. I think that's what the previous poster was alluding to when she said 'he won in part b/c some of his suppoters were not able to distinguish fact from fiction'. I was pointing out that this statement was based on the findings of the above mentioned survey, not simply her own beliefs.
Moehick Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

Rudy, although a great mayor for New York, will have a slim chance of winning the presidency. All you have to do is travel to other parts of the country to see that.

ChristineC68 Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by lesleyw


I'll explain. This post was originally based on an editorial that cited a survey from the Program on International Policy Attitudes which is affiliated with the University of Maryland. Among other things, the survey found that 72% of Bush supporters still believe that Iraq had WMDs or a major program to develop them even after the Dulfeur report disproved that. I think that's what the previous poster was alluding to when she said 'he won in part b/c some of his suppoters were not able to distinguish fact from fiction'. I was pointing out that this statement was based on the findings of the above mentioned survey, not simply her own beliefs.



I am one of the people that voted for Bush and believes there are WMD of some sort in Iraq. I KNOW they didn't find any and that this report claims there are none I just have a hard time believing it.

If people want to think I am ignorant, go ahead, but I prefer to think I am being cynical.

~~~

I didn't think Giuliani expresed any interest in running for President -- every interview I see with him, he seems pretty adament about not running. I don't think it's an office he would be very successful in because of all the checks and balance..his hands would be too tied to be the leader I think he would probably want to be.

And while he became famous after 9/11, I don't think people out side of NY are as familar with him and how he runs things.

Aside from doing wonders improving the city (granted, at the expense of a lot of disgruntled/cheated city employees) he was also very successful as the Atty General of NY.
SomedayBride Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by Moehick

Rudy, although a great mayor for New York, will have a slim chance of winning the presidency. All you have to do is travel to other parts of the country to see that.



Yeah, I don't see the people who voted for Bush based on religion going out and voting for someone who is divorced, and had his girlfriend living with him before the divorce was finalized. (Not saying that I wouldn't vote for him based on this alone, but I can see a lot of people not liking the idea)

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