Post New Topic

Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

Original post by marymoon

I'm not trying to imply that all Bush voters are ignorant or that there aren't legitimate reasons for voting for Bush, but the poll results are scary, not surprising, and true, based on my conversations with Bush voters....


OP-ED COLUMNIST
Voting Without the Facts
By BOB HERBERT

Published: November 8, 2004

E-mail: [email protected]



The so-called values issue, at least as it's being popularly tossed around, is overrated.

Last week's election was extremely close and a modest shift in any number of factors might have changed the outcome. If the weather had been better in Ohio. ...If the wait to get into the voting booth hadn't been so ungodly long in certain Democratic precincts. ... Or maybe if those younger voters had actually voted. ...

I think a case could be made that ignorance played at least as big a role in the election's outcome as values. A recent survey by the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland found that nearly 70 percent of President Bush's supporters believe the U.S. has come up with 'clear evidence' that Saddam Hussein was working closely with Al Qaeda. A third of the president's supporters believe weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq. And more than a third believe that a substantial majority of world opinion supported the U.S.-led invasion.

This is scary. How do you make a rational political pitch to people who have put that part of their brain on hold? No wonder Bush won.

The survey, and an accompanying report, showed that there's a fair amount of cluelessness in the ranks of the values crowd. The report said, 'It is clear that supporters of the president are more likely to have misperceptions than those who oppose him.'

I haven't heard any of the postelection commentators talk about ignorance and its effect on the outcome. It's all values, all the time. Traumatized Democrats are wringing their hands and trying to figure out how to appeal to voters who have arrogantly claimed the moral high ground and can't stop babbling about their self-proclaimed superiority. Potential candidates are boning up on new prayers and purchasing time-shares in front-row-center pews.

A more practical approach might be for Democrats to add teach-ins to their outreach efforts. Anything that shrinks the ranks of the clueless would be helpful.

If you don't think this values thing has gotten out of control, consider the lead paragraph of an op-ed article that ran in The LA. Times on Friday. It was written by Frank Pastore, a former major league pitcher who is now a host on the Christian talk-radio station KKLA.

'Christians, in politics as in evangelism,' said Mr. Pastore, 'are not against people or the world. But we are against false ideas that hold good people captive. On Tuesday, this nation rejected liberalism, primarily because liberalism has been taken captive by the left. Since 1968, the left has taken millions captive, and we must help those Democrats who truly want to be free to actually break free of this evil ideology.'

Mr. Pastore goes on to exhort Christian conservatives to reject any and all voices that might urge them 'to compromise with the vanquished.' How's that for values?

In The New York Times on Thursday, Richard Viguerie, the dean of conservative direct mail, declared, 'Now comes the revolution.' He said, 'Liberals, many in the media and inside the Republican Party, are urging the president to 'unite' the country by discarding the allies that earned him another four years.'

Mr. Viguerie, it is clear, will stand four-square against any such dangerous moves toward reconciliation.

You have to be careful when you toss the word values around. All values are not created equal. Some Democrats are casting covetous eyes on voters whose values, in many cases, are frankly repellent. Does it make sense for the progressive elements in our society to undermine their own deeply held beliefs in tolerance, fairness and justice in an effort to embrace those who deliberately seek to divide?

What the Democratic Party needs above all is a clear message and a bold and compelling candidate. The message has to convince Americans that they would be better off following a progressive Democratic vision of the future. The candidate has to be a person of integrity capable of earning the respect and the affection of the American people.

This is doable. Al Gore and John Kerry were less than sparkling candidates, and both came within a hair of defeating Mr. Bush.

What the Democrats don't need is a candidate who is willing to shape his or her values to fit the pundits' probably incorrect analysis of the last election. Values that pivot on a dime were not really values to begin with.

TwoBugs Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by DjPiLL


Posted by TwoBugs

Can someone tell me why Guiliani might make such a strong candidate in 2008?

I'm not being facetious - I'm not a New Yorker so I don't know his accomplishments.




Forget 9/11.


Just take a look at NYC during the Guiliani era. Then take a look at NYC during Dinkins/Koch. The man knows how to get the job done.

I rest my case.



But I'm saying that I'm not a New Yorker and know nothing about NYC or those other people you named.

I'm sure there are millions of people just like me who don't know who he is...
DjPiLL Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by lanikai

http://ustogether.org/Florida_Election.htm



This is what I have to say about this article.

lanikai Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by DjPiLL


Posted by lanikai

I find it very interesting how the Republicans were able to co-opt the word 'liberal'. Liberal does not always equal Democrat, nor does conservative alway equal Republican.





Big deal. Guiliani is a 'liberal' Republican. Arnold is a 'liberal' Republican. And a lot of people would say McCain is a 'liberal' republican. The term can be used on both sides... but historically the Democrats are the liberals.

Hell... you can even say B.Clinton was a 'Conservative' Democrat (which he was). So it works both ways.





Like I said again, if Bush and his cronies were willing to go so far as to rig things so that they could win in 2000 and 2004 (not just my opinion there is SCIENTIFIC evidence suggesting this), I could not vote for him. If you like corrupt politicians in office giving you a wonderful tax break, like I say again I hope many years from now you will be slapping yourself on the back as arrogantly as you are now.





Ill be as arrogant as the rest of the 58 million americans out there that let their voice be heard and said 'W2'.



Hey you were the one who used the term liberal as a broad ovearching generalization for Democrats. Glad you are willing to point out your own inconsistencies. Like I said before, I hope your kids, grandkids and whoever else comes after you will be thanking you for your choice. So I guess for now, hats off to you!!!jump:
DjPiLL Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by TwoBugs

But I'm saying that I'm not a New Yorker and know nothing about NYC or those other people you named.

I'm sure there are millions of people just like me who don't know who he is...




His NY record will start to be nationally publicized if he ever announces his presidential bid.

Thats why I said if he is even somewhat interested... he will take a Bush position (either Attorney General... or maybe even Director of Homeland Security to replace Ridge) to gain the national exposure.

I think Rudy would be perfect to replace Ridge's position.
DjPiLL Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by lanikai

Like I said before, I hope your kids, grandkids and whoever else comes after you will be thanking you for your choice. So I guess for now, hats off to you!!!jump:




My kids and grandkids will be fine because unlike a good portion of america that needs to rely on government funding and such... I know how to manage myself when it comes to financials and career.

lanikai Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by DjPiLL


Posted by lanikai

http://ustogether.org/Florida_Election.htm



This is what I have to say about this article.




On a humorous note, that icon is pretty hilarious, but I doubt you read the article. I don't feel pissed off because the Democrats lost. I am shocked and dismayed that our electoral system is dysfunctional. But yes, I would have like Kerry to win.
ambersmom Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

Hey you were the one who used the term liberal as a broad ovearching generalization for Democrats. Glad you are willing to point out your own inconsistencies

What about the broad ovearching generalization of Republicans by calling them ignorant??
DjPiLL Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by lanikai

But yes, I would have like Kerry to win.




And I have said it all along that in the end I really didn't care who won because I do know how to manage myself. I wasn't going to ***** and moan if Kerry won like all the Kerry supporters are now doing.

Whoever is the president is not going to affect what I do with my life.

But since Bush stays for four more years... its not like I am complaining... I am pretty happy actually.
lanikai Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by DjPiLL


Posted by TwoBugs

But I'm saying that I'm not a New Yorker and know nothing about NYC or those other people you named.

I'm sure there are millions of people just like me who don't know who he is...




His NY record will start to be nationally publicized if he ever announces his presidential bid.

Thats why I said if he is even somewhat interested... he will take a Bush position (either Attorney General... or maybe even Director of Homeland Security to replace Ridge) to gain the national exposure.

I think Rudy would be perfect to replace Ridge's position.



Nope. Guiliani will never be president. Folks outside of NY could care less about him. Now Jeb, Bush, I am willing to bet he will be pres at some point.
lanikai Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?



Whoever is the president is not going to affect what I do with my life.


Perhpas, but the president may affect what you do with your life or what happens in your life and other people's as well.
DjPiLL Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by lanikai

Nope. Guiliani will never be president. Folks outside of NY could care less about him. Now Jeb, Bush, I am willing to bet he will be pres at some point.




LOL... just like people thought the folks outside of Texas wouldn't care for their Texas governor and would vote for our vice-president. And we all know what happened with that.
DjPiLL Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by lanikai


Perhpas, but the president may affect what you do with your life or what happens in your life and other people's as well.




Give me an example of this.
verdila Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by DjPiLL


Posted by TwoBugs

But I'm saying that I'm not a New Yorker and know nothing about NYC or those other people you named.

I'm sure there are millions of people just like me who don't know who he is...




His NY record will start to be nationally publicized if he ever announces his presidential bid.

Thats why I said if he is even somewhat interested... he will take a Bush position (either Attorney General... or maybe even Director of Homeland Security to replace Ridge) to gain the national exposure.

I think Rudy would be perfect to replace Ridge's position.



It's interesting that some people outside of NY don't know Giuliani because I thought alot of the country recognized him following 9-11 and how he brought our country together so nicely.

I think he would be a good candidate but he is more of a 'liberal' Repub ( I believe he is pro-choice) but then again that is how Clinton won being a more conservative Dem.

There lies the difference with Bush being far more right and a Southern Republican then we have seen in a long time and I think that's one of the reasons why he scares some people.
DjPiLL Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by verdila

It's interesting that some people outside of NY don't know Giuliani because I thought alot of the country recognized him following 9-11 and how he brought our country together so nicely.





I'd rather give Guiliani credit for what he did with NYC BEFORE 9/11. Like how he cleaned up the crime in NYC.

Why do you think crime is down to an all-time low now? Because of Rudy. The crime rate hasn't been this low in the past 40 years. And NYC is rated the 'Safest' big city in the entire country.
TwoBugs Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by DjPiLL


Posted by TwoBugs

But I'm saying that I'm not a New Yorker and know nothing about NYC or those other people you named.

I'm sure there are millions of people just like me who don't know who he is...




His NY record will start to be nationally publicized if he ever announces his presidential bid.

Thats why I said if he is even somewhat interested... he will take a Bush position (either Attorney General... or maybe even Director of Homeland Security to replace Ridge) to gain the national exposure.

I think Rudy would be perfect to replace Ridge's position.



That sounds reasonable. Then I can base my opinion of him on how he conducts himself in the national arena.
eroxgirl Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by DjPiLL


Posted by verdila

It's interesting that some people outside of NY don't know Giuliani because I thought alot of the country recognized him following 9-11 and how he brought our country together so nicely.





I'd rather give Guiliani credit for what he did with NYC BEFORE 9/11. Like how he cleaned up the crime in NYC.

Why do you think crime is down to an all-time low now? Because of Rudy. The crime rate hasn't been this low in the past 40 years. And NYC is rated the 'Safest' big city in the entire country.



another reason crime is low is because of the population...there was a crime burst when the baby boomers were hitting their teen years through adulthood - the age range that you'll find most criminals are in. By the time Guiliani took office, there were a lot fewer people in that age group, so naturally there were a lot fewer crimes. Not to say that Guiliani didn't have something to do with it, but there are a lot of other factors at work here.
lesleyw Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by eroxgirl

another reason crime is low is because of the population...there was a crime burst when the baby boomers were hitting their teen years through adulthood - the age range that you'll find most criminals are in. By the time Guiliani took office, there were a lot fewer people in that age group, so naturally there were a lot fewer crimes. Not to say that Guiliani didn't have something to do with it, but there are a lot of other factors at work here.



Additionally, the level of prosperity enjoyed by NYC during the '90s helped drive down crime in addition to Guliani's tactics.
verdila Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by DjPiLL


Posted by verdila

It's interesting that some people outside of NY don't know Giuliani because I thought alot of the country recognized him following 9-11 and how he brought our country together so nicely.





I'd rather give Guiliani credit for what he did with NYC BEFORE 9/11. Like how he cleaned up the crime in NYC.

Why do you think crime is down to an all-time low now? Because of Rudy. The crime rate hasn't been this low in the past 40 years. And NYC is rated the 'Safest' big city in the entire country.



Hey I've been working in Manhattan for 10 yrs - I am not arguing here. I think Giuliani did alot for the city and I totally saw the difference from the city of the 80s to Dinkins to Rudy. He was a tough-*** and had his drawbacks but overall I thought he was a great mayor. I was surprised and thought that America also saw how tough and eloquent he was following 9-11 tragedy. I thought Time Mag named him Man of the Yr in 2001...so I thought he was more recogizable.
lanikai Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by DjPiLL


Posted by lanikai

Like I said before, I hope your kids, grandkids and whoever else comes after you will be thanking you for your choice. So I guess for now, hats off to you!!!jump:




My kids and grandkids will be fine because unlike a good portion of america that needs to rely on government funding and such... I know how to manage myself when it comes to financials and career.




What do you mean that a 'good portion' of American relies on gov't funding?
lanikai Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by DjPiLL


Posted by lanikai


Perhpas, but the president may affect what you do with your life or what happens in your life and other people's as well.




Give me an example of this.



Sure, but do you care about the here and now or the future?

Reply to this topic

Log in to reply or quote a post.