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Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

Original post by marymoon

I'm not trying to imply that all Bush voters are ignorant or that there aren't legitimate reasons for voting for Bush, but the poll results are scary, not surprising, and true, based on my conversations with Bush voters....


OP-ED COLUMNIST
Voting Without the Facts
By BOB HERBERT

Published: November 8, 2004

E-mail: [email protected]



The so-called values issue, at least as it's being popularly tossed around, is overrated.

Last week's election was extremely close and a modest shift in any number of factors might have changed the outcome. If the weather had been better in Ohio. ...If the wait to get into the voting booth hadn't been so ungodly long in certain Democratic precincts. ... Or maybe if those younger voters had actually voted. ...

I think a case could be made that ignorance played at least as big a role in the election's outcome as values. A recent survey by the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland found that nearly 70 percent of President Bush's supporters believe the U.S. has come up with 'clear evidence' that Saddam Hussein was working closely with Al Qaeda. A third of the president's supporters believe weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq. And more than a third believe that a substantial majority of world opinion supported the U.S.-led invasion.

This is scary. How do you make a rational political pitch to people who have put that part of their brain on hold? No wonder Bush won.

The survey, and an accompanying report, showed that there's a fair amount of cluelessness in the ranks of the values crowd. The report said, 'It is clear that supporters of the president are more likely to have misperceptions than those who oppose him.'

I haven't heard any of the postelection commentators talk about ignorance and its effect on the outcome. It's all values, all the time. Traumatized Democrats are wringing their hands and trying to figure out how to appeal to voters who have arrogantly claimed the moral high ground and can't stop babbling about their self-proclaimed superiority. Potential candidates are boning up on new prayers and purchasing time-shares in front-row-center pews.

A more practical approach might be for Democrats to add teach-ins to their outreach efforts. Anything that shrinks the ranks of the clueless would be helpful.

If you don't think this values thing has gotten out of control, consider the lead paragraph of an op-ed article that ran in The LA. Times on Friday. It was written by Frank Pastore, a former major league pitcher who is now a host on the Christian talk-radio station KKLA.

'Christians, in politics as in evangelism,' said Mr. Pastore, 'are not against people or the world. But we are against false ideas that hold good people captive. On Tuesday, this nation rejected liberalism, primarily because liberalism has been taken captive by the left. Since 1968, the left has taken millions captive, and we must help those Democrats who truly want to be free to actually break free of this evil ideology.'

Mr. Pastore goes on to exhort Christian conservatives to reject any and all voices that might urge them 'to compromise with the vanquished.' How's that for values?

In The New York Times on Thursday, Richard Viguerie, the dean of conservative direct mail, declared, 'Now comes the revolution.' He said, 'Liberals, many in the media and inside the Republican Party, are urging the president to 'unite' the country by discarding the allies that earned him another four years.'

Mr. Viguerie, it is clear, will stand four-square against any such dangerous moves toward reconciliation.

You have to be careful when you toss the word values around. All values are not created equal. Some Democrats are casting covetous eyes on voters whose values, in many cases, are frankly repellent. Does it make sense for the progressive elements in our society to undermine their own deeply held beliefs in tolerance, fairness and justice in an effort to embrace those who deliberately seek to divide?

What the Democratic Party needs above all is a clear message and a bold and compelling candidate. The message has to convince Americans that they would be better off following a progressive Democratic vision of the future. The candidate has to be a person of integrity capable of earning the respect and the affection of the American people.

This is doable. Al Gore and John Kerry were less than sparkling candidates, and both came within a hair of defeating Mr. Bush.

What the Democrats don't need is a candidate who is willing to shape his or her values to fit the pundits' probably incorrect analysis of the last election. Values that pivot on a dime were not really values to begin with.

KerrC Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

Just out of curiosity...what difference does it make? Why are you so threatened? I am honestly curious. The conservative news media has been using the word 'liberal' as if it is a dirty word. If the Democrats present a really strong candidate that would offer a positive change for all Americans, would you vote for them?



Jordan Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by DjPiLL

Name me one Democrat (not named Clinton) that you think would even have a chance in 2008?



Barack Obama...


PS - Clinton can't run for president again...he's served his (max) 2 terms.
lesleyw Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by DjPiLL

[Name me one Democrat (not named Clinton) that you think would even have a chance in 2008?



What difference does it make right now? Who knows who could emerge as a leader in the next four years and what could happen to McCain or Guiliani over the same period of time.
lesleyw Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

I agree Barack Obama is a rising star and I think John Edwards still has quite a future ahead of him.

KerrC Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by Jordan


Posted by DjPiLL

Name me one Democrat (not named Clinton) that you think would even have a chance in 2008?



Barack Obama...




I agree!
DjPiLL Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by KerrC

Just out of curiosity...what difference does it make? Why are you so threatened? I am honestly curious. The conservative news media has been using the word 'liberal' as if it is a dirty word. Why do you feel this way?





Are you kidding me? I don't feel threatened at all. My candidate won. And until somebody can step up from the left... the right will hold the presidency for the next 12 years IMO.

I just love 'correcting' all the people on this site that want to spread their liberal propganda saying 'boo hoo we shouldn't have lost... people must be uneducated if you voted for bush... bla bla bla'. I love this.
Jordan Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

Edwards didn't impress me as much as Obama did. What a phenomenal speaker...I will definitely be following him closely over the next few years.

DjPiLL Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by lesleyw

I agree Barack Obama is a rising star and I think John Edwards still has quite a future ahead of him.




Edwards... maybe. Edwards may have a chance in 2008 since he might be able to take some of the 'south' away from the Red.

No chance in hell in Obama becoming president. You will see Hillary president before him.

But both Guiliani and McCain will be tough to beat because both of them have very 'middle of the road' views. They are not way-right like Bush is so I think they will still carry Jesusland... but they will also take a good amount of states that would normally vote Democrat.

Hell... Guiliani is pro-gay and pro-abortion (totally against the Republican standard).
KerrC Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by Jordan

Edwards didn't impress me as much as Obama did. What a phenomenal speaker...I will definitely be following him closely over the next few years.




I heard Barak Obama on the news last night. He is such a great public figure.
TwoBugs Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

Can someone tell me why Guiliani might make such a strong candidate in 2008?

I'm not being facetious - I'm not a New Yorker so I don't know his accomplishments.
DjPiLL Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by TwoBugs

Can someone tell me why Guiliani might make such a strong candidate in 2008?

I'm not being facetious - I'm not a New Yorker so I don't know his accomplishments.




Forget 9/11.


Just take a look at NYC during the Guiliani era. Then take a look at NYC during Dinkins/Koch. The man knows how to get the job done.

I rest my case.
lesleyw Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by TwoBugs

Can someone tell me why Guiliani might make such a strong candidate in 2008?

I'm not being facetious - I'm not a New Yorker so I don't know his accomplishments.



I'm not even sure Guiliani could even get the Republican nomination now that the party has moved so far to the right. He doesn't exactly fit with the whole 'family values' thing.
Jordan Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

Has Guiliani even shown any interest in the presidency?


Based on intelligence, Obama has the best shot, imo.

But b/c our country is filled with racists and bigots - propelled by fear, you're right, DJ, he doesn't have a fair shot in hell. Unfortunately.
DjPiLL Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by lesleyw

I'm not even sure Guiliani could even get the Republican nomination now that the party has moved so far to the right. He doesn't exactly fit with the whole 'family values' thing.




I agree... but if he loses the nomination... he will lose it to McCain most likely. And McCain isn't exactly 'way right' either.
verdila Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by lesleyw

I agree Barack Obama is a rising star and I think John Edwards still has quite a future ahead of him.



I can't comment on Obama since I dont know much about him except that I know it was a historic win for him (the name is pretty scary tho) but as for Edwards, I think his political career may be over.
lesleyw Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by Jordan

Has Guiliani even shown any interest in the presidency?


Based on intelligence, Obama has the best shot, imo.

But b/c our country is filled with racists and bigots - propelled by fear, you're right, DJ, he doesn't have a fair shot in hell. Unfortunately.



DjPiLL Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by Jordan

Has Guiliani even shown any interest in the presidency?





Like I said earlier. If Guiliani takes the Attorney General position... you damm right he is shooting for 2008 presidential bid.

If he avoids any position offer from Bush... then most likely he isn't interested.
lanikai Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by DjPiLL


Posted by KerrC

Just out of curiosity...what difference does it make? Why are you so threatened? I am honestly curious. The conservative news media has been using the word 'liberal' as if it is a dirty word. Why do you feel this way?





Are you kidding me? I don't feel threatened at all. My candidate won. And until somebody can step up from the left... the right will hold the presidency for the next 12 years IMO.

I just love 'correcting' all the people on this site that want to spread their liberal propganda saying 'boo hoo we shouldn't have lost... people must be uneducated if you voted for bush... bla bla bla'. I love this.



Well you don't sound too enlightened when you would make a comment about the decreasing value of the dollar as only impacting people who travel. A little short-sighted eh?

Just because people think that some Democrats potentially have a positive future in political office why does it have to sound as though they are threatened?

Furthermore this is not always an issue of us vs. them. We are all Americans. The reason why I have a problem with people voting for Bush solely on the tax issue for example is because I am concerned about the choices he makes that would impact all of us as Americans, not just my pocketbook. Like I said again, if Bush and his cronies were willing to go so far as to rig things so that they could win in 2000 and 2004 (not just my opinion there is SCIENTIFIC evidence suggesting this), I could not vote for him. If you like corrupt politicians in office giving you a wonderful tax break, like I say again I hope many years from now you will be slapping yourself on the back as arrogantly as you are now.

I find it very interesting how the Republicans were able to co-opt the word 'liberal'. Liberal does not always equal Democrat, nor does conservative alway equal Republican.

DjPiLL Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by lanikai

I find it very interesting how the Republicans were able to co-opt the word 'liberal'. Liberal does not always equal Democrat, nor does conservative alway equal Republican.





Big deal. Guiliani is a 'liberal' Republican. Arnold is a 'liberal' Republican. And a lot of people would say McCain is a 'liberal' republican. The term can be used on both sides... but historically the Democrats are the liberals.

Hell... you can even say B.Clinton was a 'Conservative' Democrat (which he was). So it works both ways.





Like I said again, if Bush and his cronies were willing to go so far as to rig things so that they could win in 2000 and 2004 (not just my opinion there is SCIENTIFIC evidence suggesting this), I could not vote for him. If you like corrupt politicians in office giving you a wonderful tax break, like I say again I hope many years from now you will be slapping yourself on the back as arrogantly as you are now.





Ill be as arrogant as the rest of the 58 million americans out there that let their voice be heard and said 'W2'.
lanikai Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

For those of you willing to consider the unthinkable.

http://ustogether.org/Florida_Election.htm

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