Jewish brides with FH converting (ed)

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Posted by Goldi1021

I am trying to understand why he would want to uphold traditions of one faith when he is converting to another. If you are both Jewish, whether by conversion or birth, how would you have an interfaith home? I am not judging, just trying to understand.

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This is my Aunt.

She is a wonderful woman, my aunt, REALLY. But she cannot let go of Christmas. Cannot. Every year the Poinsettias are up by Thanksgiving (she'd have a tree if my Uncle would allow it), and for Chanukah she's got the family doing the 'Chanukah Dance' - which is walking around in a circle singing Oh Christmas Tree, except replace the words 'Christmas Tree' with Chanukah. It is a little maddening, really. They don't do Santa Claus, but they do spend Christmas morning with my Aunt's family.

In my Aunt's case, I've always felt that the only reason she converted was that my Uncle wouldn't have married her if she didn't. I kinda wish she hadn't converted and he'd married her anyway, because it bothers me that she has to give up things that obviously mean so much to her. Besides, why say you're Jewish when your heart isn't really in it?

Sorry to barge in since I'm not a 'Jewish Bride with FH converting (ed)' but I do have experience on both sides, so to speak. My DH was raised Jewish, I was raised Catholic. Both of us are embroiled in our own traditions but neither of us are religious. So, we celebrate everything.

I personally think the best way to make these decisions might be to decide if doing what he wants you to do goes against what you believe as Jews. You seem to be making these decisions based on the fact that it's not what you are used to as a Jew. Well, NONE of this is what he's used to period. So IMO you're going to have to be a bit more flexible in how you deal with traditions, et al.

Neither Santa Claus nor celebrating Christmas in a secular sense are conflicting, IMO. I grew up with almost exclusively Jewish friends and so many of them do things to 'celebrate' Christmas. As long as you're not Hasidic or Orthodox, I don't see why it has to be all or none here.

Just another way to look at it - did you ever go out on St. Patrick's day, even though you're not Irish? What about grabbing a margarita on Cinco de Mayo, even if you're not Mexican? To join in the festivities of a holiday and celebrate with those around you, as well as educate your (future) children on your (future) husband's (and his family's) culture is always a positive.

Just so you understand, Eileen, being religious has nothing to do with which sect of Judaism you happen to subscribe to.

I'm a Reform Jew, but I'm very religious. I just happen to practice differently than an Orthodox or Hasidic Jew would. Celebrating Christmas with others, in their homes or out in public, is perfectly acceptable, but in my own home absolutely not.

That said, my DH's family is Conservative, which many people think (incorrectly) is 'more religious' than a Reform family would be. My MIL offered me Oreo Cookies 20 minutes after the Passover Seder (this is a BIG NO-NO).

There are a LOT of people who don't get this, but really, in any group, there are always going to be people who think they're better than others. There are many people in the more traditional sects who believe that Reform Jews are 'not Jewish enough', and in some cases the same argument is used against Conservatives, but that's because they don't understand the philosophies behind the different movements. But that's for another day.

Loren, if I were in your shoes I would sit down with your FH and make sure he really wants to convert, and that he's not just doing it for you. Then you should decide if you're okay with the 'I'm just doing this for you' answer, because his heart may not be in it.

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Posted by RedRoses

I know there's a bunch of you out there who are Jewish and whose FH's are converting. We always have a tough time around the holidays and I was wondering how others manage this stuff. IE: I feel like I want to have a Jewish family and he wants to have an interfaith family...would prefer that his kids believe in Santa Claus, 'celebrate' Christmas even if it's not in our home. I say Jewish kids don't generally believe in SC and Jewish families don't celebrate Xmas, but we can still go and be a part of the holiday with his fam. We tend to get very stuck on these issues, so I wanted to know how others manage it. Also, there's a bunch of yahoogroups for people who are converting, but anyone know of one for significant others of people converting? It'd be great to flesh out some ideas and get some support. thanks.

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I hear what you are saying..I think it's fine to participate in the holiday celebrations of other faiths especially one he grew up with, but he converted. The celebration in your house should be of the holiday you observe together. Go to his family's house and enjoy their traditions, but as a Jew who married another Jew, I would never have a Christmas tree or celebrate it in my house. that's just my opinion. If I married a Christian or a Muslim or any other faith then, I would welcome those celebrations in my home.

He coverted for a reason. Was it the right reasons? He doesn't need to let go of his family traditions and celebrating with them, but you two should focus on your faith whether you are observant or not.

ETA: Did he convert yet or not...that wasn't clear to me.

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Posted by PrincessRose

Just so you understand, Eileen, being religious has nothing to do with which sect of Judaism you happen to subscribe to.

I'm a Reform Jew, but I'm very religious. I just happen to practice differently than an Orthodox or Hasidic Jew would. Celebrating Christmas with others, in their homes or out in public, is perfectly acceptable, but in my own home absolutely not.

That said, my DH's family is Conservative, which many people think (incorrectly) is 'more religious' than a Reform family would be. My MIL offered me Oreo Cookies 20 minutes after the Passover Seder (this is a BIG NO-NO).

There are a LOT of people who don't get this, but really, in any group, there are always going to be people who think they're better than others. There are many people in the more traditional sects who believe that Reform Jews are 'not Jewish enough', and in some cases the same argument is used against Conservatives, but that's because they don't understand the philosophies behind the different movements. But that's for another day.

Loren, if I were in your shoes I would sit down with your FH and make sure he really wants to convert, and that he's not just doing it for you. Then you should decide if you're okay with the 'I'm just doing this for you' answer, because his heart may not be in it.

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I agree with this, thanks for putting it out there.

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Posted by PrincessRose

Just so you understand, Eileen, being religious has nothing to do with which sect of Judaism you happen to subscribe to.

I'm a Reform Jew, but I'm very religious. I just happen to practice differently than an Orthodox or Hasidic Jew would. Celebrating Christmas with others, in their homes or out in public, is perfectly acceptable, but in my own home absolutely not.

That said, my DH's family is Conservative, which many people think (incorrectly) is 'more religious' than a Reform family would be. My MIL offered me Oreo Cookies 20 minutes after the Passover Seder (this is a BIG NO-NO).

There are a LOT of people who don't get this, but really, in any group, there are always going to be people who think they're better than others. There are many people in the more traditional sects who believe that Reform Jews are 'not Jewish enough', and in some cases the same argument is used against Conservatives, but that's because they don't understand the philosophies behind the different movements. But that's for another day.

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Thanks, but I'm well aware of what 'religious' means and what the difference amongst the sects are . And, quite honestly, every single time you post back to me on a thread that has anything to do with Judaism your tone is incredibly condescending. Don't assume that simply because I was not raised Jewish, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

RedRoses - as I said, my apologies for barging in since I'm not of the specific group you requested answer your thread. I felt I could offer you something they could not, though, which was a POV from the other side. I hope you and your FH do find the best balance for you.

It sounds to me like you FH isn't really serious about converting. I would advise that you both go through a course together. There are several that are set up a 'pre-conversion' to make sure everyone knows what it really means to convert. Perhaps you should contact a local synagogue.

Have you considered what would happen if he never converted? Would you still marry him?

I agree with you about Christmas. Despite what some non-Jews have said on this thread most Jews don't celebrate Christmas in their homes or have any of the trappings of Christmas up in their homes. Though I think you will always, and should always, celebrate Christmas with your FH family it won't be your holiday.

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Posted by eogara

Sorry to barge in since I'm not a 'Jewish Bride with FH converting (ed)' but I do have experience on both sides, so to speak. My DH was raised Jewish, I was raised Catholic. Both of us are embroiled in our own traditions but neither of us are religious. So, we celebrate everything.

I personally think the best way to make these decisions might be to decide if doing what he wants you to do goes against what you believe as Jews. You seem to be making these decisions based on the fact that it's not what you are used to as a Jew. Well, NONE of this is what he's used to period. So IMO you're going to have to be a bit more flexible in how you deal with traditions, et al.

Neither Santa Claus nor celebrating Christmas in a secular sense are conflicting, IMO. I grew up with almost exclusively Jewish friends and so many of them do things to 'celebrate' Christmas. As long as you're not Hasidic or Orthodox, I don't see why it has to be all or none here.

Just another way to look at it - did you ever go out on St. Patrick's day, even though you're not Irish? What about grabbing a margarita on Cinco de Mayo, even if you're not Mexican? To join in the festivities of a holiday and celebrate with those around you, as well as educate your (future) children on your (future) husband's (and his family's) culture is always a positive.

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I am sorry I really have to disagree with you. Most Jews do NOT celebrate christmas. I think most Jews enjoy having time off at this time of the year and may particpate in holiday parties and attend christmas functions -- but they don't 'celebrate' christmas. More importantly Jews don't believe in Christmas or Saint Nick -- which is really what this is about.

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Posted by hocus
Despite what some non-Jews have said on this thread most Jews don't celebrate Christmas in their homes or have any of the trappings of Christmas up in their homes.

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Being the 'non-Jew' you're referring to, I'd like to point out that if you took the time to properly read the original post, you will see that her FH in fact did NOT demand that the 'trappings' of Christmas be in their home:

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would prefer that his kids believe in Santa Claus, 'celebrate' Christmas even if it's not in our home

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Posted by hocus
I am sorry I really have to disagree with you. Most Jews do NOT celebrate christmas. I think most Jews enjoy having time off at this time of the year and may particpate in holiday parties and attend christmas functions -- but they don't 'celebrate' christmas. More importantly Jews don't believe in Christmas or Saint Nick -- which is really what this is about.

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Where exactly did I say that 'most Jews celebrate Christmas'???

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Posted by eogara

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Posted by hocus
I am sorry I really have to disagree with you. Most Jews do NOT celebrate christmas. I think most Jews enjoy having time off at this time of the year and may particpate in holiday parties and attend christmas functions -- but they don't 'celebrate' christmas. More importantly Jews don't believe in Christmas or Saint Nick -- which is really what this is about.

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Where exactly did I say that 'most Jews celebrate Christmas'???

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I believe you said it right here

Neither Santa Claus nor celebrating Christmas in a secular sense are conflicting, IMO. **I grew up with almost exclusively Jewish friends and so many of them do things to 'celebrate' Christmas**. As long as you're not Hasidic or Orthodox, I don't see why it has to be all or none here.

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Posted by hocus

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Posted by eogara

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Posted by hocus
I am sorry I really have to disagree with you. Most Jews do NOT celebrate christmas. I think most Jews enjoy having time off at this time of the year and may particpate in holiday parties and attend christmas functions -- but they don't 'celebrate' christmas. More importantly Jews don't believe in Christmas or Saint Nick -- which is really what this is about.

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Where exactly did I say that 'most Jews celebrate Christmas'???

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I believe you said it right here

Neither Santa Claus nor celebrating Christmas in a secular sense are conflicting, IMO. **I grew up with almost exclusively Jewish friends and so many of them do things to 'celebrate' Christmas**. As long as you're not Hasidic or Orthodox, I don't see why it has to be all or none here.

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Right, because 'so many of my friends' absolutely translates to Most of the Jewish Population

Besides that fact, 'most Jews' actually don't marry non-Jews - whether converted to Judaism or not. So, the rules of the game have already changed.

It's a bit ridiculous that I'm being attacked for MY opinion (which, apparently, her FH shares) and for sharing things from MY experiences as a 'non-Jew' (or shiksa, which is what I'm sure you're already thinking) who has become part of a Jewish family.

GL RedRoses - I'm sorry this thread turned into a debate about how little I know about a Jewish-Christian relationship

converting to Judaism (or any religion) is a very serious matter and it sounds to me, no offense, that your FH is not taking this very seriously.

if you convert to Judaism, you're Jewish. Jews don't celebrate Christmas.

There isn't a Rabbi alive that would agree to convert your FH with his current wishes.

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Posted by eogara

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Posted by PrincessRose

Just so you understand, Eileen, being religious has nothing to do with which sect of Judaism you happen to subscribe to.

I'm a Reform Jew, but I'm very religious. I just happen to practice differently than an Orthodox or Hasidic Jew would. Celebrating Christmas with others, in their homes or out in public, is perfectly acceptable, but in my own home absolutely not.

That said, my DH's family is Conservative, which many people think (incorrectly) is 'more religious' than a Reform family would be. My MIL offered me Oreo Cookies 20 minutes after the Passover Seder (this is a BIG NO-NO).

There are a LOT of people who don't get this, but really, in any group, there are always going to be people who think they're better than others. There are many people in the more traditional sects who believe that Reform Jews are 'not Jewish enough', and in some cases the same argument is used against Conservatives, but that's because they don't understand the philosophies behind the different movements. But that's for another day.

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Thanks, but I'm well aware of what 'religious' means and what the difference amongst the sects are . And, quite honestly, every single time you post back to me on a thread that has anything to do with Judaism your tone is incredibly condescending. Don't assume that simply because I was not raised Jewish, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

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Actually, you said in your original post a few things made me think you had fallen prey to a common misconception that, as I posted in my original response, EVEN JEWS fall prey to - that Reform = Non-religious. You said that you and your DH weren't religious, that most of your Jewish friends celebrated Christmas in some fashion, and *this was the part that really gave me the idea that you weren't aware* that as long as one wasn't Orthodox or Hasidic, that it shouldn't be conflicting. I therefore, explained why it still conflicts.

I am sorry that you find me condescending, and like I said, I thought you were under a VERY COMMON misconception. As to responding to things you say, I try to keep that to a minimum because you and I often disagree. However, you 'asked' why it should be a problem to celebrate Christmas as a non-Orthodox or Hasidic Jew, so I answered.

Also, as I originally understood the post, Loren had no problem with spending Christmas with her FILs, she just didn't want it in her home. I don't see that as completely rejecting the holiday. And if her FH is converting, he should convert, and not do it half-way. If he's uncomfortable giving up his traditions, then I don't think he should convert.

this comes down to what we call the 'december dilema'.
it is a sticky situation for both interfaith and couples where 1 partner is coverting/has converted.

people feel pressure from their families and have conflicting notions of how to celebrate the holidays.

i suggest that you and fh sit down and have a serious heart-to-heart talk and if it helps-- meet with your rabbi or cantor for extra guidance. we clergy people deal with this issue with our congregants often.

HTH

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Posted by eogara

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Posted by hocus

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Posted by eogara

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Posted by hocus
I am sorry I really have to disagree with you. Most Jews do NOT celebrate christmas. I think most Jews enjoy having time off at this time of the year and may particpate in holiday parties and attend christmas functions -- but they don't 'celebrate' christmas. More importantly Jews don't believe in Christmas or Saint Nick -- which is really what this is about.

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Where exactly did I say that 'most Jews celebrate Christmas'???

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I believe you said it right here

Neither Santa Claus nor celebrating Christmas in a secular sense are conflicting, IMO. **I grew up with almost exclusively Jewish friends and so many of them do things to 'celebrate' Christmas**. As long as you're not Hasidic or Orthodox, I don't see why it has to be all or none here.

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Right, because 'so many of my friends' absolutely translates to Most of the Jewish Population

Besides that fact, 'most Jews' actually don't marry non-Jews - whether converted to Judaism or not. So, the rules of the game have already changed.

It's a bit ridiculous that I'm being attacked for MY opinion (which, apparently, her FH shares) and for sharing things from MY experiences as a 'non-Jew' (or shiksa, which is what I'm sure you're already thinking) who has become part of a Jewish family.

GL RedRoses - I'm sorry this thread turned into a debate about how little I know about a Jewish-Christian relationship

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I don't think you're being attacked, but I think several of us Jews disagree with your statement that a Christmas tree and celebrating Christmas in a secular sense doesn't conflict with being Jewish. My parents never put up a tree or Christmas lights in our home b/c we're Jewish. I think that might have been confusing for us as kids to have a Christmas tree knowing that everyone in our family is Jewish. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how you can fully separate anything that's Christmas related from the religion/holiday.
I agree with other posters about talking to your FH about whether he really wants to convert. Is he ok with converting and just celebrating Christmas with his family outside of your home? Although DH isn't religious and we will raise our children Jewish, he did not want to convert. He knew he'd only be converting for me and wouldn't believe in or practice the religion. I respected his decision. Had he converted, we'd only celebrate Christmas with his family in their homes.

I am Jewish and FH is not. He is not converting, and neither am I. We will have an interfaith household, and we will celebrate holidays of both faiths. This is a personal choice for both of us. I don't think either of us would have been willing to completely give up how we have been raised, even though neither of us is particularly religious.
Why is your FH converting? Would you marry him if he didn't? I think you should sit down with him and have this discussion, it is a very serious issue that will become even more serious as the years go by.