NWR: Insane realization...

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You're kidding right?! I have a Master's Degree and make about $30,000 a year BEFORE taxes are taken out. Rich my @$$! I barely make enough to cover ALL my bills. I CHOSE to be a teacher because I love working with kids - and I love what I do. But don't, under ANY circumstances act like I have it easy. I have kids that are not only dealing with the stresses of school but peer pressure and home issues as well. I don't just 'hand out a test' or any of that BS - I WORK WITH MY KIDS, I HELP THEM UNDERSTAND.

Things like THIS are why I can't stand our society. Don't talk about my job like you know - because you obviously has no idea what goes into being a teacher - THE TIME, WORK, and EFFORT. I bring home things constantly to do or grade AND I spent $1000 of MY OWN money (was not reimbursed) on my classroom BEFORE school even started. Don't tell me under ANY circumstances that I have it easy and that I'm rich.

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Best I can say - you work in the wrong school district. The school district I report on and I have their line by line budget - starting salary is above $35,000 if you have a masters. In a few years, you are above $50,000.

No one's job is easy. Teachers, Firefighters, Police, Paramedics, Neurosurgeons, Lawyers, TV anchors, Journalists... there are so many people out there who don't have it easy.

Never said you were rich - said what we were taught as kids. Learn to read what I post. I never said 'you' I said - we were preached to as children.

I certainly received the line s- if you want to be rich and have summers off, be a teacher. Many of my friends did too. Many are now jobless due to tight budgets.

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Posted by Kguardz

My FH is an art teacher, the whole reason i dont have the ring yet is because he lost a huge part of his job this year is only part time and probably will not have a job in his school district at all next year. It makes me so angry to see him struggle and become so depressed and then hear someone say teachers make too much money. Newsday is notorious for being anti-teacher. His boss makes over 200k and does NOTHING for him. This guy just sits behind a desk all day and doesn't do ****. UGH I feel for all you teachers out there its a rough gig. God bless you for doing it i do not have the paitence!

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But you jut highlighted the problem - -- why the hell does a district administrator get upwards of $200,000?

Well, in part, because its in scale with the teachers pay, and ultimately its a supervisory position.

Once agian... It seems I'm battling a bunch of teachers who think they have the only important job in the work -

Where would the world be without soldiers to defend us?

Where would we be without police to enforce civilized laws?

Where would we be without lawyers to defend our rights when violated?

Where would we be without doctors, to keep us healthy?

Where would we be without paramedics to save our lives?

Where are we without firefighters to rush to our rescue for fires, car accidents, bom threats, hazmats and more?


Keep this in mind - most firefighters are volunteers on Long island. They don't get paid, benefits, or days off.

I have to say - for all the haters out there who hate me (it's okay, I was never the popular kid)

Answer me this - why do you deserve a raise every year as part of your contract, both a 2-4 percent cost of living plus a step raise (just for working another year)?


Don't you think your raises should be based on job performance? Why should it be guaranteed?

tell me other jobs where pay raises are written into contract for definite.

As I've said - I never said teachers were overpaid or asked for them to be paid less. I just wish they would realize that there are plenty of people out there with the same education, who work as many if not longer hours, have extremely stressful jobs and pay less.

Don't act like you are the worst off out there.

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Posted by sjr385

Butterflyfaye, you make some good points. When you quote that the average teacher makes 2-3 times the average salary, is that compared to people with comparable education or just vs the general public? Is it for our area or nationwide?

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I'm quoting for specificly Suffolk Long Island, and that's including the payment of deans, subject directors, assistant principals, principals, and admin in the figures.

I haven't been able to get a source without those factors in - but its worth noting a teacher with years of experience can be promoted ot assistant principal or principal - often 6 figure salary.



I think part of the problem is that education is a public good (technically in economic terms it might be quasi-public if it's excludable but... anyway...). No individual has an incentive to pay for it on their own (in the same way nobody has an incentive to take care of the field where everybody grazes their cattle) but the public benefits because we're educating the next generation of workers and thinkers and billionaires. That'll skew any public debate over teachers salaries.

Also, when you have this discussion in general terms, it's good to remember that (a) LI public school teachers generally get paid better than much of the nation; and (b) our LI public schools are generally much stronger than much of the nation, especially for the students at the top and bottom ends of the spectrum. The early investment in a child's education pays off repeatedly.

Older teachers on LI tend to be pretty well-paid. The new teachers now... not as much.

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New teachers are having problems due to the economy. It's worth noting this entire conversation I've been talking teachers in general and repeatedly mention I have plenty of personal friends who can't get a job due to the layoffs etc.

Also - just as a stat, as of 2010 - NY is among highest paying for teachers, and 38th in graduation rate. We are also among the top 5 in per pupil spending.

Notice that
- among highest for teacher salary
- top 5 in per pupil spending (I think we are #1)
- 38th in graduation rate.

Why? There's obviously a problem.

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Posted by Butterflyfaye

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Posted by Kguardz

My FH is an art teacher, the whole reason i dont have the ring yet is because he lost a huge part of his job this year is only part time and probably will not have a job in his school district at all next year. It makes me so angry to see him struggle and become so depressed and then hear someone say teachers make too much money. Newsday is notorious for being anti-teacher. His boss makes over 200k and does NOTHING for him. This guy just sits behind a desk all day and doesn't do ****. UGH I feel for all you teachers out there its a rough gig. God bless you for doing it i do not have the paitence!

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But you jut highlighted the problem - -- why the hell does a district administrator get upwards of $200,000?

Well, in part, because its in scale with the teachers pay, and ultimately its a supervisory position.

Once agian... It seems I'm battling a bunch of teachers who think they have the only important job in the work -

Where would the world be without soldiers to defend us?

Where would we be without police to enforce civilized laws?

Where would we be without lawyers to defend our rights when violated?

Where would we be without doctors, to keep us healthy?

Where would we be without paramedics to save our lives?

Where are we without firefighters to rush to our rescue for fires, car accidents, bom threats, hazmats and more?


Keep this in mind - most firefighters are volunteers on Long island. They don't get paid, benefits, or days off.

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You make some good points and not many people do that without so many good arguments. I think as teachers we are used to hearing 'oh you only work half days' and other BS without any good reasoning or understanding behind what is actually done.
We are used to having programs cut and no budgets. We are used to getting really defensive.
It is definitely a huge problem and I personally really do agree with you. MANY jobs are really important to our neighborhoods and futures and in order for education in our country to even go anywhere, the pay of educators (mostly administrators) needs to be examined.
As a homeowner I do look at it from both sides. If the residents can't afford to pay these salaries, it all goes around in a circle and we are in a mess like we are now. Serious restructuring has to happen but it doesn't really start with the teachers salaries, it starts way higher up. Like the original post stated - that crazy superintendent salary!!!

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Posted by Shanti12

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Posted by Butterflyfaye

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Posted by Kguardz

My FH is an art teacher, the whole reason i dont have the ring yet is because he lost a huge part of his job this year is only part time and probably will not have a job in his school district at all next year. It makes me so angry to see him struggle and become so depressed and then hear someone say teachers make too much money. Newsday is notorious for being anti-teacher. His boss makes over 200k and does NOTHING for him. This guy just sits behind a desk all day and doesn't do ****. UGH I feel for all you teachers out there its a rough gig. God bless you for doing it i do not have the paitence!

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But you jut highlighted the problem - -- why the hell does a district administrator get upwards of $200,000?

Well, in part, because its in scale with the teachers pay, and ultimately its a supervisory position.

Once agian... It seems I'm battling a bunch of teachers who think they have the only important job in the work -

Where would the world be without soldiers to defend us?

Where would we be without police to enforce civilized laws?

Where would we be without lawyers to defend our rights when violated?

Where would we be without doctors, to keep us healthy?

Where would we be without paramedics to save our lives?

Where are we without firefighters to rush to our rescue for fires, car accidents, bom threats, hazmats and more?


Keep this in mind - most firefighters are volunteers on Long island. They don't get paid, benefits, or days off.

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You make some good points and not many people do that without so many good arguments. I think as teachers we are used to hearing 'oh you only work half days' and other BS without any good reasoning or understanding behind what is actually done.
We are used to having programs cut and no budgets. We are used to getting really defensive.
It is definitely a huge problem and I personally really do agree with you. MANY jobs are really important to our neighborhoods and futures and in order for education in our country to even go anywhere, the pay of educators (mostly administrators) needs to be examined.
As a homeowner I do look at it from both sides. If the residents can't afford to pay these salaries, it all goes around in a circle and we are in a mess like we are now. Serious restructuring has to happen but it doesn't really start with the teachers salaries, it starts way higher up. Like the original post stated - that crazy superintendent salary!!!

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Thank you Shanti, for acknowledging the argument I am actually making.

I do think teachers hear a lot of BS. No. 1, it's becoming obvious if a teacher used to a discipline the student - the student had misbehaved. Now when a teacher does it, half the time the parents refuse to believe they had reason. I've heard some ridiculous crap and acknowledge, I'm glad I'm not a teacher who had to deal with i.

The pay of educators needs to be examined, and yes, I totally agree it starts with administrators - a $180,00o up to $300,000 or more salary, plus health benefits fully paid for, plus a spending account for admin, plus pension? It's out of control.

I think the yearly reviews are necessary. I believe teachers should have a contract that includes a yearly review, and raises are based upon review. (Note to my bashers: Yes, teachers should get merit-based raises, or cost of living plus whatever merit warrants).

Much like many other jobs out there.

Ultimately, I'm not lying when I say high taxes is what has driven so many off Long Island. The bulk of yearly taxes are school taxes, which need to be lowered to make life affordable - one way or another.

New York State has one of the most rigorous requirements for high school graduation. Not every state comes close. Iowa, for example, has around a 90% graduation rate.

'According to Iowa's Association of School Boards, the following minimum requirements must be met in order to get a high school diploma (these are averages for the state):

Four credits of English
Three credits of social studies
Three credits of mathematics'

Compared that to our own state's requirements, though we have a 70% grad rate:

'According to the New York State Education Department, www.emsc.nysed.gov, a student must complete the following coursework before earning a high school diploma:

Four years of English
Four years of social studies
Three years of Science, including one life science, one physical science and one elective
Three years of Math
One year of visual arts and/or music
1/2 year of health education
2 years of physical education'

I don't think your points about the taxes are invalid. Voters are in a hard place, having to choose between funding the futures of LI kids or having money for themselves. It's just that the framing of your argument was phrased in such a way that expressed the sentiment that the flaws stem from people who only teach of the vacation, money, and so forth.

I don't work for a school district - I work in a parochial school. There aren't jobs on long island in public schools, and instead of sitting around doing nothing, I put myself out there to teach anything that I could. I love what I do - and based on my salary - OBVIOUSLY don't do it for the money.

I'm kind of curious what you do, butterflyfaye? Do you get yearly reviews and, based on that alone, get a raise? I'm not trying to be rude, but honestly. I want to see you do what I do for a day, and think it's an easy, huge paying, vacation filled job.

I'm not saying that taxes aren't crazy high - they absolutely are. But putting so much blame on the schools/teachers isn't exactly fair. And I DO agree that teachers should be evaluated - I get it TWICE a year from my principal. But I do not think that should be the sole basis for giving someone a raise - I've worked my butt off getting a higher degree and continuing my education. It's something I have to AND want to do, to be a better teacher. And I don't think there is anything wrong with getting a raise for that. ESPECIALLY since I need to get 30 more credits to reach the next significant pay raise.

there are sooo many professions that are under paid. ugh! Don't get me started!

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Posted by Butterflyfaye

Once agian... It seems I'm battling a bunch of teachers who think they have the only important job in the work -

Keep this in mind - most firefighters are volunteers on Long island. They don't get paid, benefits, or days off.

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You're kidding right? I literally laughed out loud when I saw this one. We never said we had the ONLY important job in the world. I will sit here til I'm blue in the face saying that city cops don't get paid enough because I know from my father's experience for 20 years. Jobs like fireman, police officers, social workers - none of them get paid what they should.

And you are absolutely right about firefighters. It's their choice to volunteer. I know, since FH was a fireman. And I do believe they should get paid - but they do know it is a volunteer position. If they want it as a career, they can always apply to work as a firefighter in the city.

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Posted by Butterflyfaye

I have to say - for all the haters out there who hate me (it's okay, I was never the popular kid)

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I'm sorry that I've posted like 4 times in a row, but I had to address this. I may come off a little rude when I go back at you, but I under no circumstances 'hate' you. You need to understand what it feels like to be a teacher reading your comments - it's not very fun lol. I don't agree with pretty much anything you say, especially since you are talking about ONE school district that you know about. It doesn't necessarily apply to all of us - because I know it sure as heck doesn't even remotely apply to me. So yea, do I dislike what you say and disagree with you? Yep! lol. But I don't think anyone on here 'hates' you - we are voicing our opinions on the topic - just like you.

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Posted by Pretty_In_Pink

there are sooo many professions that are under paid. ugh! Don't get me started!

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You're exactly right.

Because of the way the economy is, you could throw a rock and hit ten people who work extremely hard for very little takeaway.

The more we argue about it, the more we forget that it takes every single one of the possible professions in order to have a society that can actually function. Whether we're teachers & nurses or doctors & lawyers, or even volunteers, we deserve respect but we have to give it as well.

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Posted by teacherteacher

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Posted by Pretty_In_Pink

there are sooo many professions that are under paid. ugh! Don't get me started!

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You're exactly right.

Because of the way the economy is, you could throw a rock and hit ten people who work extremely hard for very little takeaway.

The more we argue about it, the more we forget that it takes every single one of the possible professions in order to have a society that can actually function. Whether we're teachers & nurses or doctors & lawyers, or even volunteers, we deserve respect but we have to give it as well.

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Posted by mattandjess2013

I don't work for a school district - I work in a parochial school. There aren't jobs on long island in public schools, and instead of sitting around doing nothing, I put myself out there to teach anything that I could. I love what I do - and based on my salary - OBVIOUSLY don't do it for the money.

I'm kind of curious what you do, butterflyfaye? Do you get yearly reviews and, based on that alone, get a raise? I'm not trying to be rude, but honestly. I want to see you do what I do for a day, and think it's an easy, huge paying, vacation filled job.

I'm not saying that taxes aren't crazy high - they absolutely are. But putting so much blame on the schools/teachers isn't exactly fair. And I DO agree that teachers should be evaluated - I get it TWICE a year from my principal. But I do not think that should be the sole basis for giving someone a raise - I've worked my butt off getting a higher degree and continuing my education. It's something I have to AND want to do, to be a better teacher. And I don't think there is anything wrong with getting a raise for that. ESPECIALLY since I need to get 30 more credits to reach the next significant pay raise.

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First off - None of what I've said applied to you. You work in a parochial school, which is a private business. They have the right to pay you whatever they want.

I have NEVER implied that you don't love what you do.

So that said - I could put my job out there and know you'lll just do your best to rip it apart.

I work for a private company.
I work 50 to 60 hours a week regularly, sometimes closer to 70 to 80.
I don't get overtime, don't expect a pension
I am reviewed 2x a year, and yes, my raises are dependent on how the company is doing and whether I meet performance - not on simply having the job.
I have a higher degree, and continue my education every day. I have to to keep my job and be competitive.


Ultimately - my whole point from the beginning was many public school teachers have to realize - their pay comes from taxes. Just like an elected official. Taxpayers get to essentially vote on their salary each year... they should expect due to working for the public, that their salaries will come under scrutiny.

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Posted by sjr385
I'm all in favor of merit-based pay for teachers in principle, but I have yet to hear a good suggestion for how to fairly measure teacher performance in practice. Have you?

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THIS! Unfortunately, it is very difficult to fairly measure teacher performance. Should we base it on test scores? Well, no, since there are classes that are special education (where children aren't on grade level but may have to take a grade level test) and students that simply do not test well (I've seen kids that are 90-95 students who just cannot take state exams because they psych themselves out). So state exams are out. What else? Measuring where they were and where they are when they leave? Another thing that is good in theory, but doesn't work when based in reality. You have students that, literally, no matter HOW HARD you try, they don't do work, they don't try, or they just don't get it. So that won't work. Should it be based on what the principal thinks? Well this COULD work, except it could be based on personal opinions and feelings towards that teacher. So based on human emotion, no that won't work either. So until someone comes up with a completely fair way of measuring teacher performance, it it a little difficult to reward merit-based pay.

And butterflyfaye - I'm a little insulted that you said that I would do my best to rip apart your job. I think that is a little unfair, and it was never something I intended to do. And it does look like we are in the same boat with certain things. I also work for a private company, I work 40 hours a week JUST in my building (that does not include grading, putting projects together, etc that I do on my own time), I don't get overtime, I'm reviewed twice a year, and I continue my education all the time (which I pay for out of my own money). I never asked what you did so that I could rip it apart - sorry if you thought that.

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I'm all in favor of merit-based pay for teachers in principle, but I have yet to hear a good suggestion for how to fairly measure teacher performance in practice. Have you?

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Like I say to everyone with this argument - it really doesn't start with the teachers and their salaries but the higher up corruption.

Tons of smart ladies on this board :) LI wouldn't have great education without the teachers and they ARE required all of that continuing Ed which costs $ out of their pockets. Teacher pay is fair to me, it's the pensions of 200k that isn't in my opinion.

Also I suppose I'm being selfish in my arguments because if the corruption were not happening, more people like me could actually have a teaching job and not a hiring freeze across NYC and no jobs on LI.
My friends who are teaching are certainly observed and evaluated throughout the year with or without tenure.
Anyway I know many people like myself and the art teacher above who don't need to make a fortune but just want to see more opportunities for teachers so their classes don't get cut and so that current teachers don't have 50 kids in one class!

New teachers are having problems due to the economy. It's worth noting this entire conversation I've been talking teachers in general and repeatedly mention I have plenty of personal friends who can't get a job due to the layoffs etc.

Also - just as a stat, as of 2010 - NY is among highest paying for teachers, and 38th in graduation rate. We are also among the top 5 in per pupil spending.

Notice that
- among highest for teacher salary
- top 5 in per pupil spending (I think we are #1)
- 38th in graduation rate.

Why? There's obviously a problem.

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Ok..let's get some facts straight here with some brutal honesty

Nassau county is One if the counties in our country with the highest taxes. my taxes are absolutely crazy in town of Hempstead. FH and I chose a district that is in a middle class neighborhood but has pretty decent state scores. Education for our (maybe) children is super important. Now, the taxes we pay aren't just to support this district, but we are paying for the lower functioning schools that are in areas of need, such as Hempstead, Uniondale, Roosevelt, etc. These schools receive so much government funding, which often includes, free food, free tutoring, free housing. With that being said, Nassau taxes are among the highest because overall the cost of living is much greater here. Yes, with my degree, I'd make much less in, say, Kentucky. But my mortgage would be a quarter of what it is here. It is all relative to the cost of living
Now, I am sure your statistics are accurate but are you realizing that it is New York State as a whole?? Brooklyn vs Hamptons vs Binghamton vs Upper East Side. Although areas like Uniondale aren't as successful in academics, teachers make more than surrounding areas because of all the government funding for the free things those kids are given. Therefore, there are incentives for teachers to work in low income areas, with minority socioeconomic backgrounds. If teachers are given a choice to work in Garden City or right down the road to Hempstead, what would they choose? That's why there needs to be a balance.
Top in per pupil spending; okay follow me here. I work in South Bronx. The state average for IEPs in a school is 8-10%. (IEPs are individualized education plans. Students who are classified with having a disability receive this for modified accommodations and services). Many schools in my home neighborhood have below 5% IEP rates. The school I work in, OVER 30%!!! Guess what? My school is going to get a lot more funding to provide for these students than, say, Syosset. And I sure as he'll don't make what those teachers make. Why do my kids have more IEPs? Because some of them have emotional disturbance, mental retardation or developmental disorders because of drugs, alcohol, and other forms of abuse. Generally the disorders we see here, you will find very few and far between in an affluent Long Island school district. My school is 95+% free lunch. They get free breakfast as well. There is social security, WIC, welfare, section 8 housing, food stamps. There is very few incentives for the people in that community to work on their own. Who pays for that? I do. Teachers do. In fact EVERY tax payer does. Stop complaining you pay my salary. Complain about paying for the people who DON'T give back to their community. This goes along with the poor graduation rate. Education is not valued in that neighborhood. We are so proud of any 8th grader who chooses to go to high school, because guess what sister-they often drop out early. But yes, you're right. That's MY fault that they don't have family encouragement to better themselves.
I 100% agree that salaries and tenure should be based upon performance. I am just waiting for a fair evaluation to be given. City has not had a contract since May 2006. 6 years. So don't tell me that we are getting automatic raises. My school was a pilot school for the new evaluations last year. I scored an 84. Not bad. But here is why I automatically lost points. Our test scores are low (I wasn't in a testing grade, so too bad for me). Our attendance and tardiness is poor. (I'm sorry! I forgot to pick up my 31 kids on my way to work so they can get their free breakfast too because nobody at home was able to wake themselves up. My bad!). I have automatic points against me for things that are out of my control. If I taught the same grade, same curricula, in a neighborhood, such as Flushing. I probably would have had a 94. Teachers in low performing schools don't have a shot at merit raises because of the backgrounds of my kids. Let's not forget about the English Language Learners. Our school is at least 40% ELL. They take the same state test as everyone else, no accommodations. Yea, they might just fail that. Does this at all help you understand why NYS scores are not it's best? Instead of pointing your finger at teachers like me, maybe we should look at society as a whole. My students are from homeless shelters, single parent families where 6 people are living in a 2 bedroom apt or other outside factors. My next door neighbor's daughter comes home and worries about that 75 she got on a spelling test. My students go home and worry about how they will find dinner, hiding belongings in a shelter, staying low because they think they heard a gun shot, wondering if the police will wake them up again and keep them up all night. So yea, homework falls by the wayside if nobody at home is there to help- if they can even speak English.
Never once have I complained about my salary. I just hate when I am told I am overpaid bc of statistics that someone didn't think about but want to throw out there. I worked in Rockville Centre for 2 years. I will never go back to an area like that. I have been in the South Bronx for 5 years. I pay $13 a day in tolls. I am out of my house for a minimum of 11 hours daily for work. I constantly hear people rip us apart because we are glorified babysitters. But you know what? I show up every day with a smile on my face and a nurturing heart. Because no matter what is wrong in my life, I will NEVER truly know the lives that my students have. I may be the only constant in some of their lives. I've been cursed at, kicked, threatened. But you know what? Those are the kids who comes to me the following year to hang out in my room or ask for lunch time together bc they know I loved them all along. No matter what I do or how much love I give I can not control where they go home to. No matter how many changed students I see, in the end they may be a product of their society. But as far as many of you are concerned, they are just a nuisance to your pocket. Your $ goes to the government. The government gives it out like free candy to these areas. But it's the teachers fault right?

PS. I have a masters plus 30. That is top pay in the salary. Yet I continue to pay for schooling and workshops on my own, with no raise coming t me, because I WANT to. Some people have intrinsic values and desires that don't stem for money.

My first year, I spent nearly $5,000 for my classroom. Behavior plans, extra resources or incentives I started didn't pan out so I changed my method and that cost time and money.

My second year was only about $3,000. Luckily the next 2 years I co-taught so we shared the expenses. It was still over $1,500 each though.

And we don't have a 'teacher's choice' or reimbursement program either, so don't worry. My classroom didn't come out of tax money

And just to throw in there. The money given to families in my work neighborhood is rarely spent on school supplies. As parents text on their newest iPhones, while holding coach purses tell me they can't afford supplies, I sigh and say 'ok'. Guess who buys notebooks, pencils, glue, crayons etc for at least 15 kids each year? Teachers do.
O and when next winter rolls around, and I pick up those jackets, sweatshirts or shoes that some kids lack, I will be sure to hit up all of you 'taxpayers'.

I don't question other people's jobs and would never degrade anyone. Don't question my abilities and what I produce with my students. They need to stop being looked at as dollar signs or test scores and instead, looked at as children

Stop looking at education as a business. We are not a business. The man on the corner who sells fruit, does well. He provides for his family, the neighborhood loves him. But if receives a bad bunch of bananas one day, he is going to send them back. We can't do that. We can't 'send back' our children. Poor, disabled, abused, unstable - all are welcome with open arms. We don't send anything back. We make them stronger and better