Sensitive topic but curious to know..

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Posted by MuchInLuvMichi

personally i avoid subjects like this b/c there r just too many 'what ifs' to every side..the only thing i can say is that..

I think until you are actually IN the situation you cant say you 'know' what you would do...
its never that simple.

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I agree..if you are in the situation, only then can you decide. But, give me the choice. I can only speculate, but I think that if men had to go through it there would not be as much controversy. (I may get slammed by this comment)

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Posted by Bride626

I think a lot of people share your friend's view. But, here is why I disagree with this view:

If you are truly pro-life, you believe (in fact, you know) that abortion ends a human life. This view is consistent with every text book on biology and embryology because all of these books will tell you that human life begins at conception. I have yet to see a serious pro-abortion advocate argue biology/embryology and that an unborn baby is just a clump of cells. Clearly, that is not the case. (And, if anyone wants to point me to scientific literature that indicates the contrary, I would be interested in seeing it.)

So, since abortion ends a life, how can you advocate allowing others to determine if they want to take a life? What if-- back in the day-- abolitionists said: 'I myself could never own a slave, but if Mr. X down the block wants to own one, who am I to stop him? It is his choice.'

Clearly, such a position would be a cop out and would disregard the rights of fellow humans. Likewise, the practice of abortion does not respect the life of the unborn. The pro life movement seeks to be a voice for the voiceless...the unborn.

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I'm sorry, but this is not empirical - this is still faith-based. There are many, many opinions on when life begins - conception is usually a faith-based response.

This is backed up by the fact that the US Supreme court (thank goodness!!) follows the viability guidlines - not the conception guidlines.

The question of when life begins cannot be answered scientifically - with 100% assertion - at this time...I'm not even sure if ever could. All evidence is subjected to opinion.

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The medical profession appears to follow the viability criteria. Medical societies enforce regulations prohibiting essentially all abortions after (typically) 20 or 21 weeks of pregnancy. The US Supreme Court also seems to have used fetal viability as a significant event; it allows states relative freedom to prohibit abortions after viability for a wide range of reasons.

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Here is some empirical info.:

The Developing Human, Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th Edition, Moore, Persaud, Saunders, 1998, states at page 2 that 'The intricate processes by which a baby develops from a single cell are miraculous .... This cell [the zygote] results from the union of an oocyte [egg] and sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being ....' At page 18 this theme is repeated: 'Human development begins at fertilization [emphasis in original] ....'

Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman, Department of Genetics at Mayo Clinic, stated, 'By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception.'

By the way, I was not talking about viability. Just because a life is not viable outside the womb does not mean it is not a life. Let's face it....an unborn baby has a beating heart 21 days after conception. I know it is not a convenient fact...but it is a fact nevertheless.

And, the Supreme Court are not medical experts....I was talking about when life begins.

Further, don't tell me I have faith based responses!! I am not part of any religion!! I do not think you need to be Catholic to respect life!!

To tell you the truth, I was pro choice up until a few years ago because I never really thought about it. Then, there was a huge controversy when my alma mater (Princeton) hired a professor to teach bioethics. This professor caused a national uproar by disability and pro-life groups because of some of his beliefs. He advocates infantcide to the disabled! Yikes!! Yes...he doesn't believe you have a soul or have a right to life until you are a few months old. (Needless to say, Princeton is not getting any alumni contributions to me.) The controversy piqued my interest so I started reading up on the issue. And, that is what informs my stance.

So, do not assume I am some one blinded by my (non existent) faith. To do so, only shows your close mindedness, ignorance and bias.

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Posted by Bride626

By the way, I was not talking about viability. Just because a life is not viable outside the womb does not mean it is not a life. Let's face it....an unborn baby has a beating heart 21 days after conception. I know it is not a convenient fact...but it is a fact nevertheless.

And, the Supreme Court are not medical experts....I was talking about when life begins.

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You are correct...however they gather their information from medical experts.

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So, do not assume I am some one blinded by my (non existent) faith. To do so, only shows your close mindedness, ignorance and bias.

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I'm not taking this to a personal level so I would expect the same from you.

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Life and personhood are two very different matters. The human ovum (egg) is already clearly alive when it enters the fallopian tubes, many hours or days before it has the opportunity to be fertilized. Women release one about each month between puberty and menopause - a few hundred in a lifetime. Almost all of these are destined to die and be ejected from the body. Unless a couple is having difficulty conceiving, very little thought is given to these hundreds of deaths. Although the ovum is a form of life, there is a consensus that it is not a human person. They only have the potential to join with a spermatozoon and -- depending on one's beliefs -- either immediately or eventually produce a human person.

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The meeting of sperm and ovum often causes conception. When the first spermatozoa penetrates the wall of the ovum, a barrier is set up which almost inevitably prevents additional spermatozoa from entering. Shown here is a microphotograph of a typical, just-fertilized ovum. It has formed a new DNA sequence from the DNA contained in the original sperm and ovum. This also is a form of human life. It is considered by scientists to be the start of a new human organism. Many pro-lifers believe that it is also a human person.

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Unfortunately, there is no consensus of when human personhood starts.

Science can tell us, with increasing detail, the processes that start with a sperm and ovum and end up with a newborn baby. But it cannot tell us:

- Does the fetus have a soul?
- When do the products of conception become a person?
- Does a zygote have a full set of human rights?
- Is an ovum and sperm a person?
- Is abortion murder?

These are questions with philosophical, religious and political aspects. Science cannot contribute a great deal towards resolving them. And because these questions have a religious component, there will always be a wide variety of beliefs among persons from different faith groups.

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Aristotle (384-322 BCE) wrote in one of his biological treatises 1 that the male embryo develops a human soul about 40 days after conception, whereas a female fetus acquires its soul at about 90 days. For much of its history, the Christian religion believed in this delayed-ensoulment principle and allowed abortions up to 90 days into pregnancy.

Some pro-choicers believe that this transition to personhood does not happen at conception. They state that the just-fertilized ovum has no limbs; no head; no brain; no ability to see, hear, smell, taste or touch; no internal organs, no self-consciousness, no ability to think, reason, sense its environment, etc. Even at the age of one month, it cannot be distinguished from the embryo of a cat or dog.

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My religion without a doubt has played a part in how I feel about human life. Is that to say a person who is non-catholic feels less about human life? Certainly not...I have a close jewish friend who is pro life..but i do know the catholic religion is one that is completely against abortion..and yes, my faith has come into play with this issue.

I do think though, anyway you view it...pro-life, pro-choice, in between, no thoughts on the subject....you have to admit that you are stopping a human life from exisiting! I do believe its as simple as that. I am pro life for myself but pro choice for others because like previous posters have said...you cannot know what you would do until you walk a mile in someone elses shoes.

Call me a hyprocrite for being pro life for myself and pro choice for others, but I don't view it that way. I think I am trying my best to have an open mind while keeping my own set of personal values. I think everyone on here should respect the other and not get too personal with this issue. At the end of the day the only person you answer to is yourself after all!

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Posted by Johnny&Maur

I do think though, anyway you view it...pro-life, pro-choice, in between, no thoughts on the subject....you have to admit that you are stopping a human life from exisiting! I do believe its as simple as that.

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I respectfully disagree. In my opinion, abortion terminates potential life - at best. An unwanted, potential life - for whatever reason...it's not for me to judge.

I thank you for being respectful...but its just what i believe.

The issue just really makes me sad. Ubelievably sad, and i can't explain it. We all started as 'potential life'. I look at my aunt who just lost her baby during her 3rd month of pregnancy..she would have given the world to have had that baby, and women..NOT ALL..don't get me wrong...but there are women out there who don't think twice about it. Its as easy as going to get your tonsils looked at...and that is where abortion sickens me. The fact that some women want a child more than anything and can't...and others can so easily abort theirs...well thats where this issue gets me. I respect everyone and repect your view wholeheartedly. But i am who i am, and that won't change.

I won't be writing anymore about this because i got my answers and have appreciated everyone who offered information to me...now i think i'll go get some wedding advice and cheer up a little!!!!

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Posted by Jenn524

What's interesting to me is how people's views change based on the position they are in. Ask a mother who had a miscarriage at 7 or 8 weeks if her baby did not have a life or was not a life form and she'll tell you how much that baby lived and how they baby was a life.

But yet as a country we're ok with an abortion at that age because we consider it to not take a life form at that point.

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I had a miscarriage years ago at about the 8th week.

My baby was a life in the making. I think it had a little soul with love from me in it. I also (maybe crazily) believe it will come back to me oneday, in the form of a friend, or maybe another baby.

If I had to choose between the life of an 8 week old fetus and the misery of, say, a woman who would not love her child or a woman whose child would bring her, the mom, misery, I would choose the mom's life. The woman's life is a LIFE TOO.

So even though my miscarried baby-to-be is in my soul, I understand and support a woman's right to choose her own fully-formed life over a life-to-be.

This is a sore topic for me becuase I respect women who have no other choice than abortion..but so many use it as a cop out that its sickening. One area where I do have a clear opinion on is Partial birth abortion..alot of people may not know this but there are kids who have actually survived this procedure and have so many defects from the attempted MURDER. Birth defects are one thing but to conciously carry a fetus to 24 weeks and after then want to change your mind for a non medical reason..its unethical and heartless.

And I have been in a situation where I was the one who could have died..I chose to carry to term. But I do respect those who cant..there is a difference between cant and WONT.

Abortion is a PERSONAL and PRIVATE choice. - A choice we all have the right to make for ourselves b/c thousands of women had suffered for years -
NO ONE has the right to suddenly limit that right, that choice. - Once you begin ammending the laws to 'control' that right - You open the door for it to one day be GONE -
WHy don't you let them take away our right to VOTE too ? Let's just push the women's movement back to 1920 ! -

It's not as simple as 'well, if she was raped, well, if it was incest' it's Ok - Did you ever consider the social and crimminal ramifacations of limiting abortions to women who have been raped ? - If having been a victim of rape was the only way to have the option for abortion, don't you think DESPERATE women would be lying through their teeth ? Women so horrified they would be willing to lie and ruin the lives of the men THEY made the decision to have sex with ?? -

You can not force your religious beleifs into the constitution. - As you can not force your MORAL beliefs into it either. -

We have the phrases Pro Life and Pro Choice because we DO have a choice to make . -
If you are pro life - don't have an abortion- But, as a WOMAN how could you possibly be comfortable w/ the government taking the right for YOU to make that decision for yourself ?? Or your daughters ? Granddaughter ??
It scares the hell out of me

It's all very simple to me. - I have the right to make that decision. - Bottom Line. - I have zero tolerance for anyone trying to take that right away . - Would I personally have an abortion....probably not. - but that's not the point. - the POINT is that the decision is MINE to make

Unfortunately the government is a factor of our lives in almost everything we do.

I like I said have my own views on abortion and yes I agree with its a personal choice ..one I cannot make but once again there have to be limitations as to what time frame it can be performed.

I feel bad for women who have no other choice than to have an abortion. But there are good reasons and there are bad. For those who in my inner circle that have had abortions..some I have let them cry on my shoulder and some..well I have shut them out of my life completely because they disgusted me with their choice because they had other options available that most women do not. Its not birth control. It is a life. And when that baby can kick, sense and hear.and possibly survive on its own...its not just a bunch of cells anymore.

My views changed when I watched A silent scream and saw the baby litterally trying to get away from the suction..It made me wonder how many women would go through it if they could see what the procedure actually entailed. If they could watch it and still do it..they made an informed decision that was best for them..cause once its done..its done.

i see alot of people here say 'i'm pro-life for myself, but pro-choice for others'....
ACTUALLY, that measn that you are pro-CHOICE!, but you would NEVER have an abortion.... and thats ok, some people are ashamed to admit they are pro-choice....., but thats just how it really is.

CLUELESS...... i'm with you on that.. i too feel that my baby will come back to me one day.... its weird, but i know how you feel.... i feel when i have a baby, it will be the same one~

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Posted by myasmom


My views changed when I watched A silent scream and saw the baby litterally trying to get away from the suction..It made me wonder how many women would go through it if they could see what the procedure actually entailed. If they could watch it and still do it..they made an informed decision that was best for them..cause once its done..its done.

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this confuses me.... how could it scream>? was it an 3rd trimester abortion????

i had mine at 6 weeks... it didnt have anything developed yet.... so i find this hard to believe

hi.. The name of the film is called A silent scream. The baby did not scream but it can be shown trying to escape form the suction device.

I am the type of person that had to see an abortion for myself before iI made my mind up as to if it was ethical 'For me' or not. And trust me..my views changed when i saw it..its a good documentary if you can stomach it.

http://www.silentscream.org/
Thats the website but I actually saw it on the public access channel.. I think 55 on cable.

Honestly..I think every woman should see the procedure before it is performed. Not to sway them but just to know what an abortion really is..words are nothing.http://www.silentscream.org/

I dont know if you personally would want to watch it. Its heart wrenching and haunted me for days and I am the gross out queen.