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This bothers me. CNN Story: Bush to sign fetus-protection bill

Original post by Xelindrya

The CNN Story

This really bothers me. I agree its wrong to abuse/attack/harm a pregnant woman. But this makes the line of what rights a fetus does and does not have a whole lot more blurry.

As a proud pro-choice follower. This really really bothers me.
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WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush on Thursday plans to sign into law legislation expanding legal rights of unborn fetuses in a ceremony in the White House Rose Garden.

The Unborn Victims of Violence Act, which took five years to get through Congress, makes it a crime to harm a fetus during an assault on a pregnant woman.

People on both sides of the fetal rights and abortion issue have said the new law will have far-reaching consequences.

Abortion opponents welcome it as a step toward more sweeping protections for the unborn, while abortion-rights proponents say the measure represents the first recognition in federal law of an embryo or fetus as a person separate from the woman.

Sen. John Kerry, Bush's Democratic opponent in the November presidential election, voted against the bill.

Bush has said he doesn't believe the country is ready to completely ban abortions; he opposes them except in cases of rape or incest or when pregnancy endangers a woman's life. That position has become a standard line in most of his speeches.

'We stand for a culture of life in which every person counts and every person matters. We will not stand for the treatment of any life as a commodity to be experimented upon, exploited or cloned,' the president told Republican donors to his campaign at a fund-raiser in Washington Tuesday night.

Bush has taken several actions that have pleased anti-abortion advocates.

As one of the first acts of his presidency, he reinstated the 'Mexico City policy' that bars U.S. money from international groups that support abortion, even with their own money, through direct services, counseling or lobbying activities.

He has signed legislation that bans certain late-term abortions and that amends legal definitions of 'person,' 'human being,' 'child' and 'individual' to include any fetus that survives an abortion.

He has increased federal support for abstinence education, adoption and crisis pregnancy programs; placed severe restrictions on federal funding for human embryonic stem cell research to only a few existing cell lines; and extended state health coverage to 'unborn children.'

The measure Bush was signing into law on Thursday is limited in scope, applying only to harm to a fetus while a federal crime, such as a terrorist attack or drug-related shooting, is being committed against the pregnant mother. The legislation defines an 'unborn child' as a child in utero, which it says 'means a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.'

A number of states have similar laws.




Jordan Posted:

Re: This bothers me. CNN Story: Bush to sign fetus-protection bill


Posted by MCDO15

is that for me?

i don't like abortion.. idea of it makes me kinda sick.

without a man, women are not getting pregnant..so yes, women's body but equal resonpability with the man that is involved.

I don't 'like' abortion either - but I'm not ProAbortion. I'm ProChoice. There is a difference, imo. Your comments are contradictory. You claim equal responsibility...but then you say something like this:

then she should of have used proper protection and/or avoid getting to a point where she feels she can't handle it


I might agree with equal responsibility - but in the end, it's her body, her choice. Forcing a woman to carry an unwanted fetus to full term is not choice, nor is it equal.
MCDO15 Posted:

Re: This bothers me. CNN Story: Bush to sign fetus-protection bill


Posted by Jordan

Your comments are contradictory. You claim equal responsibility



how so again..cause i don't see it
SteffieSunshine1 Posted:

Re: This bothers me. CNN Story: Bush to sign fetus-protection bill

I'm pro-choice also, and I do not see this as a problem. The difference is in what you choose to do to your body or concerning your fetus as opposed to what someone else does to you/your fetus against your will.

Any idea can be taken to an extreme, but I don't think holding someone accountable for harming mother and child as a step backward for the pro-choice movement. JMO.
Jordan Posted:

Re: This bothers me. CNN Story: Bush to sign fetus-protection bill


Posted by MCDO15


Posted by Jordan

Your comments are contradictory. You claim equal responsibility



how so again..cause i don't see it


Huh??


then she should of have used proper protection and/or avoid getting to a point where she feels she can't handle it
You're putting the blame on HER - there is no equality/no equal 'blame' or responsibility in that...thus, you are being contradictory.
MCDO15 Posted:

Re: This bothers me. CNN Story: Bush to sign fetus-protection bill


Posted by Jordan


Posted by MCDO15


Posted by Jordan

Your comments are contradictory. You claim equal responsibility



how so again..cause i don't see it


Huh??


then she should of have used proper protection and/or avoid getting to a point where she feels she can't handle it
You're putting the blame on HER - there is no equality/no equal 'blame' or responsibility in that...thus, you are being contradictory.



opps
i'm sorry..

it is always the two people..never just 1 (male or female).

i'm concerned with women saying its my body, my this, my that. maybe i was just reacting to that.
Xelindrya Posted:

Re: This bothers me. CNN Story: Bush to sign fetus-protection bill

This is the part that bothers me

The measure Bush was signing into law on Thursday is limited in scope, applying only to harm to a fetus while a federal crime, such as a terrorist attack or drug-related shooting, is being committed against the pregnant mother. The legislation defines an 'unborn child' as a child in utero, which it says 'means a member of the species homo sapiens, at and stage of development, who is carried in the womb.'

To give that thing within me a right to be called 'child' is what unnerves me. I say thing because they say 'any stage'.

If you start saying it has right at any stage then you start to imply it is somehow alive and able to be given civil equality. This I disagree with.

I'll be the first one to preach safe sex or no sex to avoid abortion.. but that's a CHOICE. My reasoning for being prochoice is that I don't feel I have a right to judge any other woman, PERIOD, and because of that, I have no right to force her into a way of life that I find to be acceptable. Nor do I find it my right to take away the CHOICE for her to abort a pregnancy. Although I do support the idea of stopping Partial Birth Abortions I did not like the idea of making it so that the doctors had no legal way out of it and that they could not make a choice for the welfare (mental or physical) of the mother.

This is why this bothers me.

We can not allow the government to tell us what that little piece of flesh within us is due rights and freedoms that we have. Sometimes abortion is the better solution for ALL involved.

My own mother nearly aborted me 3 times but wasn't allowed to because the military kept calling my dad to prevent her from having the abortion. She even tried to jump off the house (which ended up only hurting her - one story) and put herself inside a bathroom with the gas on (but forgot to close the door completely and only ended up with a headache) ... both of those times the embryo (ME) was perfectly unharmed. Even after I was born she left the hospital without me. My dad stayed behind. Do you know what its like to know your own mother hates you so very much she really DOES wish you were never born? Do you know what its like to HEAR it? I do and frankly if it wasnt for the fact that my father loves me so much I would feel as if I wish she HAD aborted me. No child deserves that.

I can't IMAGINE all the different situtations a woman can be in when she's pregnant and forced with that choice. Although I agree it shouldnt be a form of birth control it should also not be taken away as a choice. That choice may be for the better of the child as much as the mother to be.

Who am *I* to judge the choices of others?

JMHO

*hops off her soapbox*
I think I may have said too much but its all true and all honest.

MCDO15 Posted:

Re: This bothers me. CNN Story: Bush to sign fetus-protection bill

it is good that you are true and honest and i have done the same.

butterfly20 Posted:

Re: This bothers me. CNN Story: Bush to sign fetus-protection bill


Posted by MCDO15

is that for me?

i don't like abortion.. idea of it makes me kinda sick.

without a man, women are not getting pregnant..so yes, women's body but equal resonpability with the man that is involved.



i agree the idea of abortion makes me sick too! i feel there should only be abortion if the mothers health is at risk, or the girl was raped or something... aside from that, if you by choice have sex you have the possibility of getting pregnant and having a living thing grow inside of you, if you cant handle that then dont have sex, or get your tubes tied...
kel2004 Posted:

Re: This bothers me. CNN Story: Bush to sign fetus-protection bill


Posted by butterfly20


Posted by MCDO15

is that for me?

i don't like abortion.. idea of it makes me kinda sick.

without a man, women are not getting pregnant..so yes, women's body but equal resonpability with the man that is involved.



i agree the idea of abortion makes me sick too! i feel there should only be abortion if the mothers health is at risk, or the girl was raped or something... aside from that, if you by choice have sex you have the possibility of getting pregnant and having a living thing grow inside of you, if you cant handle that then dont have sex, or get your tubes tied...



I have a questionf for those who are agaist abortion, but think it's okay in cases of rape. How is this different from any other unwanted pregnancy? There is still a life that exists...
butterfly20 Posted:

Re: This bothers me. CNN Story: Bush to sign fetus-protection bill

the reason why its different? well the women didnt consent to the sex for one, but mainly, because the woman was attacked and viloated and if the attacker was a stranger then she probably doesnt know if there are any diseased(aids and stuff) that the baby might get.....

however..... if you do get raped then should go to the hospital and get the morning after pill which would help prevent pregnancy...
kel2004 Posted:

Re: This bothers me. CNN Story: Bush to sign fetus-protection bill


Posted by butterfly20

the reason why its different? well the women didnt consent to the sex for one, but mainly, because the woman was attacked and viloated and if the attacker was a stranger then she probably doesnt know if there are any diseased(aids and stuff) that the baby might get.....

however..... if you do get raped then should go to the hospital and get the morning after pill which would help prevent pregnancy...



So if a baby might have a disease, it shouldn't have a chance at life? Isn't that like playing God? Saying the baby isn't good enough to live?
kel2004 Posted:

Re: This bothers me. CNN Story: Bush to sign fetus-protection bill





Who am *I* to judge the choices of others?




I think you can be against abortion without judging those who have had one.
butterfly20 Posted:

Re: This bothers me. CNN Story: Bush to sign fetus-protection bill

hmmm.... personally... a baby that would be born with a major disease is a big responsibility, the baby would require alot of medical treatment which could get expensive, would require more care than a normal baby which the mother might not be able to handle..

now when i lady knows who shes having sex with, i would hope that she would know if their are any transferable diseases from her partner, and then at least she makes the decision if she wants to have sex with him, and knowingly takes the chance at having a baby with that disease.... if she is raped shes not given that chance to decide whether she can handle it...
ChristineC68 Posted:

Re: This bothers me. CNN Story: Bush to sign fetus-protection bill


Posted by butterfly20

hmmm.... personally... a baby that would be born with a major disease is a big responsibility, the baby would require alot of medical treatment which could get expensive, would require more care than a normal baby which the mother might not be able to handle..

now when i lady knows who shes having sex with, i would hope that she would know if their are any transferable diseases from her partner, and then at least she makes the decision if she wants to have sex with him, and knowingly takes the chance at having a baby with that disease.... if she is raped shes not given that chance to decide whether she can handle it...



What if the disease/condition/illness is something that is inherited through the DNA of someone you have consented to have sex with? Something you won't know until after the baby is conceived.

What if the method of contraception fails?
kel2004 Posted:

Re: This bothers me. CNN Story: Bush to sign fetus-protection bill


Posted by butterfly20

hmmm.... personally... a baby that would be born with a major disease is a big responsibility, the baby would require alot of medical treatment which could get expensive, would require more care than a normal baby which the mother might not be able to handle..

now when i lady knows who shes having sex with, i would hope that she would know if their are any transferable diseases from her partner, and then at least she makes the decision if she wants to have sex with him, and knowingly takes the chance at having a baby with that disease.... if she is raped shes not given that chance to decide whether she can handle it...



So it's okay to kill a baby if the mother doesn't think she can handle it. What about adoption?
butterfly20 Posted:

Re: This bothers me. CNN Story: Bush to sign fetus-protection bill

also in the case of rape...

when you are raped you are violated against your will...a baby from your attacker would be a constant reminder of that day when you were attacked.. the baby wasnt created with love, it was created from a crime

Xelindrya Posted:

Re: This bothers me. CNN Story: Bush to sign fetus-protection bill


Posted by kel2004





Who am *I* to judge the choices of others?




I think you can be against abortion without judging those who have had one.



I am against making those choices for them. I feel it's not my right.

Lets say that (for hypothesis) that I dont want an abortion, fine who am I to tell others they have to feel and think the same way as me?

If you're not judging how people who've had abortions are, then why try to ban abortions and take that choice they used away from them.

I just feel there's too many varibles invovled to be 100% sure enough to say 'I say there shall no abortions'
kel2004 Posted:

Re: This bothers me. CNN Story: Bush to sign fetus-protection bill


Posted by butterfly20

also in the case of rape...

when you are raped you are violated against your will...a baby from your attacker would be a constant reminder of that day when you were attacked.. the baby wasnt created with love, it was created from a crime




So the baby should be killed? Is it the baby's fault?
butterfly20 Posted:

Re: This bothers me. CNN Story: Bush to sign fetus-protection bill


Posted by kel2004

So it's okay to kill a baby if the mother doesn't think she can handle it. What about adoption?



yeah there is adoption,however the mother has to carry the baby for 9 months, and for 9 months be reminded of the raper...then they would need to find a home for the baby, and i would imagine it would be more difficult to find a home for a diseased baby verses a healthy one IMO

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