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Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

Original post by marymoon

I'm not trying to imply that all Bush voters are ignorant or that there aren't legitimate reasons for voting for Bush, but the poll results are scary, not surprising, and true, based on my conversations with Bush voters....


OP-ED COLUMNIST
Voting Without the Facts
By BOB HERBERT

Published: November 8, 2004

E-mail: [email protected]



The so-called values issue, at least as it's being popularly tossed around, is overrated.

Last week's election was extremely close and a modest shift in any number of factors might have changed the outcome. If the weather had been better in Ohio. ...If the wait to get into the voting booth hadn't been so ungodly long in certain Democratic precincts. ... Or maybe if those younger voters had actually voted. ...

I think a case could be made that ignorance played at least as big a role in the election's outcome as values. A recent survey by the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland found that nearly 70 percent of President Bush's supporters believe the U.S. has come up with 'clear evidence' that Saddam Hussein was working closely with Al Qaeda. A third of the president's supporters believe weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq. And more than a third believe that a substantial majority of world opinion supported the U.S.-led invasion.

This is scary. How do you make a rational political pitch to people who have put that part of their brain on hold? No wonder Bush won.

The survey, and an accompanying report, showed that there's a fair amount of cluelessness in the ranks of the values crowd. The report said, 'It is clear that supporters of the president are more likely to have misperceptions than those who oppose him.'

I haven't heard any of the postelection commentators talk about ignorance and its effect on the outcome. It's all values, all the time. Traumatized Democrats are wringing their hands and trying to figure out how to appeal to voters who have arrogantly claimed the moral high ground and can't stop babbling about their self-proclaimed superiority. Potential candidates are boning up on new prayers and purchasing time-shares in front-row-center pews.

A more practical approach might be for Democrats to add teach-ins to their outreach efforts. Anything that shrinks the ranks of the clueless would be helpful.

If you don't think this values thing has gotten out of control, consider the lead paragraph of an op-ed article that ran in The LA. Times on Friday. It was written by Frank Pastore, a former major league pitcher who is now a host on the Christian talk-radio station KKLA.

'Christians, in politics as in evangelism,' said Mr. Pastore, 'are not against people or the world. But we are against false ideas that hold good people captive. On Tuesday, this nation rejected liberalism, primarily because liberalism has been taken captive by the left. Since 1968, the left has taken millions captive, and we must help those Democrats who truly want to be free to actually break free of this evil ideology.'

Mr. Pastore goes on to exhort Christian conservatives to reject any and all voices that might urge them 'to compromise with the vanquished.' How's that for values?

In The New York Times on Thursday, Richard Viguerie, the dean of conservative direct mail, declared, 'Now comes the revolution.' He said, 'Liberals, many in the media and inside the Republican Party, are urging the president to 'unite' the country by discarding the allies that earned him another four years.'

Mr. Viguerie, it is clear, will stand four-square against any such dangerous moves toward reconciliation.

You have to be careful when you toss the word values around. All values are not created equal. Some Democrats are casting covetous eyes on voters whose values, in many cases, are frankly repellent. Does it make sense for the progressive elements in our society to undermine their own deeply held beliefs in tolerance, fairness and justice in an effort to embrace those who deliberately seek to divide?

What the Democratic Party needs above all is a clear message and a bold and compelling candidate. The message has to convince Americans that they would be better off following a progressive Democratic vision of the future. The candidate has to be a person of integrity capable of earning the respect and the affection of the American people.

This is doable. Al Gore and John Kerry were less than sparkling candidates, and both came within a hair of defeating Mr. Bush.

What the Democrats don't need is a candidate who is willing to shape his or her values to fit the pundits' probably incorrect analysis of the last election. Values that pivot on a dime were not really values to begin with.

verdila Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

Sassyz75 Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

oh boy- the national review..
that's like posting an Op Ed from the Lefty- Pink-o magazine.
OSCARtheGROOM Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by Sassyz75

oh boy- the national review..
that's like posting an Op Ed from the Lefty- Pink-o magazine.

I agree.
verdila Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

whatever.

DjPiLL Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by lanikai


Posted by Russo'sbride

When it all the comes down to it Bush won and the republicans control the house and the senate.



That's true, but that's not the point of the post. Although he 'won' it scary to know that he won in part because some of his supporters were not able to distinguish fact from fiction.




FACT: I pay less taxes under the Bush law. Thats reason enough for him to get my vote.
lanikai Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

FACT: I pay less taxes under the Bush law. Thats reason enough for him to get my vote.



Posted by DjPiLL


Posted by lanikai


Posted by Russo'sbride

When it all the comes down to it Bush won and the republicans control the house and the senate.



That's true, but that's not the point of the post. Although he 'won' it scary to know that he won in part because some of his supporters were not able to distinguish fact from fiction.




FACT: I pay less taxes under the Bush law. Thats reason enough for him to get my vote.





I hope for people who voted for Bush because of the tax cuts, that they and their posterity are truly able to enjoy those tax cuts. I say again, with all the issues going in this world and in this country, the tax cuts that Bush proposes will help only a few of us, not the vast majority of us. But let me guess what the self-interested folks will to say me in response: 'As long as our problems as a nation don't affect me personally, I don't have to care.' Right?

I truly believe that many of us will come to learn that our lives and situations are connected in more ways than we understand given the historic moment we are living through. So, perhaps the issues that people don't think affect them will be right in their backyard one day.

I also hope that when the ramifications of the Bush adminstration's domestic and foreign policy agenda come home to roost in the years to come, that these folks will be able to console themselves by saying, 'well thank God I voted for those tax cuts! Amen!'

And I surely hope that their apathy for the situation of others who are not like them does not come back to haunt them.

I know by saying this I am going to get the whole spiel about people being entitled to their opinions, which they most certainly are. I accept it, expect it. and trying damn hard to respect it But, here's my opinion in response to theirs.

ambersmom Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

I love the whole 'The sky is falling' mentality....

The world is a messed up place regardless of what ONE MAN sits in the white house. He is not #1 supreme being - he doesn't control or rule entirely on his own...
lesleyw Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by lanikai


I truly believe that many of us will come to learn that our lives and situations are connected in more ways than we understand given the historic moment we are living through. So, perhaps the issues that people don't think affect them will be right in their backyard one day.

I also hope that when the ramifications of the Bush adminstration's domestic and foreign policy agenda come home to roost in the years to come, that these folks will be able to console themselves by saying, 'well thank God I voted for those tax cuts! Amen!'

And I surely hope that their apathy for the situation of others who are not like them does not come back to haunt them.





I completely agree with you.
heidla Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by lanikai

FACT: I pay less taxes under the Bush law. Thats reason enough for him to get my vote.




Posted by DjPiLL





FACT: I pay less taxes under the Bush law. Thats reason enough for him to get my vote.





I hope for people who voted for Bush because of the tax cuts, that they and their posterity are truly able to enjoy those tax cuts. I say again, with all the issues going in this world and in this country, the tax cuts that Bush proposes will help only a few of us, not the vast majority of us. But let me guess what the self-interested folks will to say me in response: 'As long as our problems as a nation don't affect me personally, I don't have to care.' Right?

I truly believe that many of us will come to learn that our lives and situations are connected in more ways than we understand given the historic moment we are living through. So, perhaps the issues that people don't think affect them will be right in their backyard one day.

I also hope that when the ramifications of the Bush adminstration's domestic and foreign policy agenda come home to roost in the years to come, that these folks will be able to console themselves by saying, 'well thank God I voted for those tax cuts! Amen!'

And I surely hope that their apathy for the situation of others who are not like them does not come back to haunt them.

I know by saying this I am going to get the whole spiel about people being entitled to their opinions, which they most certainly are. I accept it, expect it. and trying damn hard to respect it But, here's my opinion in response to theirs.




Very well said!!!!
lanikai Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by ambersmom

I love the whole 'The sky is falling' mentality....:



The world is a messed up place regardless of what ONE MAN sits in the white house. He is not #1 supreme being - he doesn't control or rule entirely on his own...



Thank you for the kudos-I think 'the sky is falling' perspective is a more than adequate description of what we are living through these days.

Well given his policy agenda, he certainly acts like he's a supreme being. I wonder if the thousands of Iraqi who have lost innocent mothers, fathers, sisters, and brother don't think that the 'sky is falling' over there.
But, I guess we don't have to care because we are over here.
ambersmom Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

How about the 5,000 (+/-) Iraqi's that were murdered while Saddam tested out his *phantom* WMD? back in 1988?? What about their mothers/fathers/children?? Must be Bush's fault for wanting to liberate them from such a barbarious murderer....

What about the mass graves they are finding over there with woman and children in them?? On hilltops, etc. One little boy was still holding a ball in his hand while he was shot in the head by Saddam's henchmen???

What about the documented on tape gassing of dogs as 'testers' for Al-Quada's agenda??

What about the fact that Saddam REPEATEDLY denied access to the UN investigators and was forewarned many, many times of the ramifications of his defiance? That's Bush's fault for not backpedaling on his promise to take action against a murderer....

I guess every problem is the world is due to Bush. Hey, my bathroom at work is missing some T/P. I guess that's his fault too. Mr. Bush, can you come here and refill it for me??
lesleyw Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by ambersmom

How about the 5,000 (+/-) Iraqi's that were murdered while Saddam tested out his *phantom* WMD? back in 1988?? What about their mothers/fathers/children?? Must be Bush's fault for wanting to liberate them from such a barbarious murderer....




This argument would be more compelling if the Regan/Bush administration hadn't been supporting Saddam and turning a blind eye to these atrocities during th '80s.
lanikai Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by lesleyw


Posted by ambersmom

How about the 5,000 (+/-) Iraqi's that were murdered while Saddam tested out his *phantom* WMD? back in 1988?? What about their mothers/fathers/children?? Must be Bush's fault for wanting to liberate them from such a barbarious murderer....




This argument would be more compelling if the Regan/Bush administration hadn't been supporting Saddam and turning a blind eye to these atrocities during th '80s.



Speak on! How quickly many of us forget history. Yes, Reagan and Bush Sr. helped Saddam take power. And Bush Sr. knew that those his economic sanctions had the most negative impact on women and children in Iraq. Tens of thousands of women and children died because we were unwilling to even send them some food throughout the 1990's and then all of a sudden GW want to save them? You are right, Bush is currentlyto blame for many of the problems nations in the world are confronting with his illogical pre-emptive war agenda.

DjPiLL Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by lanikai

I hope for people who voted for Bush because of the tax cuts, that they and their posterity are truly able to enjoy those tax cuts.




Bush's tax cuts affect anybody that makes more than 28k a year. Whether you want to 'enjoy' it or not... face the facts. You are paying less taxes now than you did under the Clinton administration.

lanikai Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by DjPiLL


Posted by lanikai

I hope for people who voted for Bush because of the tax cuts, that they and their posterity are truly able to enjoy those tax cuts.




Bush's tax cuts affect anybody that makes more than 28k a year. Whether you want to 'enjoy' it or not... face the facts. You are paying less taxes now than you did under the Clinton administration.




Yes, the whopping $300 I got years ago allowed me to set a trust fund for my children.
KerrC Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by DjPiLL


Posted by lanikai

I hope for people who voted for Bush because of the tax cuts, that they and their posterity are truly able to enjoy those tax cuts.




Bush's tax cuts affect anybody that makes more than 28k a year. Whether you want to 'enjoy' it or not... face the facts. You are paying less taxes now than you did under the Clinton administration.




That may be true, but we are paying more for gas...the cost of living as a whole has risen and we are enjoying less services. Our dollar is steadily decreasing in value because of our rising deficit.
ambersmom Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

Tens of thousands of women and children died because we were unwilling to even send them some food throughout the 1990's


Ahhh, you mean when Clinton was in power, right??? There are MILLIONS of people dying in the nations of Africa too due to starvation. Why aren't you crying foul in their names as well???
DjPiLL Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by lanikai


Posted by DjPiLL


Posted by lanikai

I hope for people who voted for Bush because of the tax cuts, that they and their posterity are truly able to enjoy those tax cuts.




Bush's tax cuts affect anybody that makes more than 28k a year. Whether you want to 'enjoy' it or not... face the facts. You are paying less taxes now than you did under the Clinton administration.




Yes, the whopping $300 I got years ago allowed me to set a trust fund for my children.




Do you even have a clue what I am talking about? I am not talking about the $300 buks that practically EVERYBODY got. Your tax bracket was lowered under the Bush administration. Marriage relief was implemented. Child Tax credit was increased. Capital Gains relief was installed.

Do you want to take my word for it or would you rather see a link so you can read it for yourself?
lesleyw Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by KerrC




That may be true, but we are paying more for gas...the cost of living as a whole has risen and we are enjoying less services. Our dollar is steadily decreasing in value because of our rising deficit.


Good points.
lanikai Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

[ There are MILLIONS of people dying in the nations of Africa too due to starvation. Why aren't you crying foul in their names as well???


Who said I am not crying foul on their behalf? Nor did I say Bill Clinton's policy on Iraq was right in the 1990's, it was wrong. But when Bush Sr. had the opportunity to kick Saddam out he turner his back on the Iraqi people and pulled out. And then his son took this country to war under the pretense of freeing Iraq.

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