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Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

marymoon Posted:

Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

I'm not trying to imply that all Bush voters are ignorant or that there aren't legitimate reasons for voting for Bush, but the poll results are scary, not surprising, and true, based on my conversations with Bush voters....


OP-ED COLUMNIST
Voting Without the Facts
By BOB HERBERT

Published: November 8, 2004

E-mail: [email protected]



The so-called values issue, at least as it's being popularly tossed around, is overrated.

Last week's election was extremely close and a modest shift in any number of factors might have changed the outcome. If the weather had been better in Ohio. ...If the wait to get into the voting booth hadn't been so ungodly long in certain Democratic precincts. ... Or maybe if those younger voters had actually voted. ...

I think a case could be made that ignorance played at least as big a role in the election's outcome as values. A recent survey by the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland found that nearly 70 percent of President Bush's supporters believe the U.S. has come up with 'clear evidence' that Saddam Hussein was working closely with Al Qaeda. A third of the president's supporters believe weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq. And more than a third believe that a substantial majority of world opinion supported the U.S.-led invasion.

This is scary. How do you make a rational political pitch to people who have put that part of their brain on hold? No wonder Bush won.

The survey, and an accompanying report, showed that there's a fair amount of cluelessness in the ranks of the values crowd. The report said, 'It is clear that supporters of the president are more likely to have misperceptions than those who oppose him.'

I haven't heard any of the postelection commentators talk about ignorance and its effect on the outcome. It's all values, all the time. Traumatized Democrats are wringing their hands and trying to figure out how to appeal to voters who have arrogantly claimed the moral high ground and can't stop babbling about their self-proclaimed superiority. Potential candidates are boning up on new prayers and purchasing time-shares in front-row-center pews.

A more practical approach might be for Democrats to add teach-ins to their outreach efforts. Anything that shrinks the ranks of the clueless would be helpful.

If you don't think this values thing has gotten out of control, consider the lead paragraph of an op-ed article that ran in The LA. Times on Friday. It was written by Frank Pastore, a former major league pitcher who is now a host on the Christian talk-radio station KKLA.

'Christians, in politics as in evangelism,' said Mr. Pastore, 'are not against people or the world. But we are against false ideas that hold good people captive. On Tuesday, this nation rejected liberalism, primarily because liberalism has been taken captive by the left. Since 1968, the left has taken millions captive, and we must help those Democrats who truly want to be free to actually break free of this evil ideology.'

Mr. Pastore goes on to exhort Christian conservatives to reject any and all voices that might urge them 'to compromise with the vanquished.' How's that for values?

In The New York Times on Thursday, Richard Viguerie, the dean of conservative direct mail, declared, 'Now comes the revolution.' He said, 'Liberals, many in the media and inside the Republican Party, are urging the president to 'unite' the country by discarding the allies that earned him another four years.'

Mr. Viguerie, it is clear, will stand four-square against any such dangerous moves toward reconciliation.

You have to be careful when you toss the word values around. All values are not created equal. Some Democrats are casting covetous eyes on voters whose values, in many cases, are frankly repellent. Does it make sense for the progressive elements in our society to undermine their own deeply held beliefs in tolerance, fairness and justice in an effort to embrace those who deliberately seek to divide?

What the Democratic Party needs above all is a clear message and a bold and compelling candidate. The message has to convince Americans that they would be better off following a progressive Democratic vision of the future. The candidate has to be a person of integrity capable of earning the respect and the affection of the American people.

This is doable. Al Gore and John Kerry were less than sparkling candidates, and both came within a hair of defeating Mr. Bush.

What the Democrats don't need is a candidate who is willing to shape his or her values to fit the pundits' probably incorrect analysis of the last election. Values that pivot on a dime were not really values to begin with.

myasmom Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


What the Democratic Party needs above all is a clear message and a bold and compelling candidate.


Surprisingly it is not the argument on values that I see people saying as to why they voted for Bush and not Kerry..but the above statement actually surfaces more. From talk shows like Elder to news stations like CNN.

(instead of studying yes I am watching talk shows)
RedHead Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by marymoon

What the Democratic Party needs above all is a clear message and a bold and compelling candidate. The message has to convince Americans that they would be better off following a progressive Democratic vision of the future. The candidate has to be a person of integrity capable of earning the respect and the affection of the American people.

This is doable. Al Gore and John Kerry were less than sparkling candidates, and both came within a hair of defeating Mr. Bush.

What the Democrats don't need is a candidate who is willing to shape his or her values to fit the pundits' probably incorrect analysis of the last election. Values that pivot on a dime were not really values to begin with.




this is exactly how i feel and the reason i believe Bush won...
lesleyw Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by marymoon

I think a case could be made that ignorance played at least as big a role in the election's outcome as values. A recent survey by the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland found that nearly 70 percent of President Bush's supporters believe the U.S. has come up with 'clear evidence' that Saddam Hussein was working closely with Al Qaeda. A third of the president's supporters believe weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq. And more than a third believe that a substantial majority of world opinion supported the U.S.-led invasion.



This is really scarey. I went to the organization's website to get a better idea of the survey, and it is stunning. It defies all logic that in the face of the Dulfeur Report people still believe the BS pouring out the Bush's mouth.
myasmom Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

u mean there were no weapons of mass destruction found right
lesleyw Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

Here's the link to the report.

Scary false realities

I think the most stunning thing is the following finding:

Steven Kull, director of PIPA, comments, 'One of the reasons that Bush supporters have these beliefs is that they perceive the Bush administration confirming them. Interestingly, this is one point on which Bush and Kerry supporters agree.' Eighty-two percent of Bush supporters perceive the Bush administration as saying that Iraq had WMD (63%) or that Iraq had a major WMD program (19%). Likewise, 75% say that the Bush administration is saying Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda. Equally large majorities of Kerry supporters hear the Bush administration expressing these views--73% say the Bush administration is saying Iraq had WMD (11% a major program) and 74% that Iraq was substantially supporting al Qaeda.
Russo'sbride Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

When it all the comes down to it Bush won and the republicans control the house and the senate.

myasmom Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


When it all the comes down to it Bush won and the republicans control the house and the senate


And I would say that even if Kerry had won too.
lanikai Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by Russo'sbride

When it all the comes down to it Bush won and the republicans control the house and the senate.



That's true, but that's not the point of the post. Although he 'won' it scary to know that he won in part because some of his supporters were not able to distinguish fact from fiction.
Russo'sbride Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by lanikai


Posted by Russo'sbride

When it all the comes down to it Bush won and the republicans control the house and the senate.



That's true, but that's not the point of the post. Although he 'won' it scary to know that he won in part because some of his supporters were not able to distinguish fact from fiction.



thats just your opinion and everyone is entitled to their opinion.
lanikai Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by Russo'sbride


Posted by lanikai


Posted by Russo'sbride

When it all the comes down to it Bush won and the republicans control the house and the senate.



That's true, but that's not the point of the post. Although he 'won' it scary to know that he won in part because some of his supporters were not able to distinguish fact from fiction.



thats just your opinion and everyone is entitled to their opinion.



What are you referring to? Is this post not about why he won?
eogara Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by oct.2004bride


Posted by marymoon

What the Democratic Party needs above all is a clear message and a bold and compelling candidate. The message has to convince Americans that they would be better off following a progressive Democratic vision of the future. The candidate has to be a person of integrity capable of earning the respect and the affection of the American people.

This is doable. Al Gore and John Kerry were less than sparkling candidates, and both came within a hair of defeating Mr. Bush.

What the Democrats don't need is a candidate who is willing to shape his or her values to fit the pundits' probably incorrect analysis of the last election. Values that pivot on a dime were not really values to begin with.




this is exactly how i feel and the reason i believe Bush won...



couldn't have said it better myself.
Russo'sbride Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by lanikai


Posted by Russo'sbride


Posted by lanikai


Posted by Russo'sbride

When it all the comes down to it Bush won and the republicans control the house and the senate.



That's true, but that's not the point of the post. Although he 'won' it scary to know that he won in part because some of his supporters were not able to distinguish fact from fiction.



thats just your opinion and everyone is entitled to their opinion.



What are you referring to? Is this post not about why he won?



I understand that. The point I am making is that Bush has won it's over he's going to be president for the next four years. When you mentioned 'he won in part b/c some of his suppoters were not able to distinguish fact from fiction'. To me that is an opinion not a fact but you are entitled to it.
lesleyw Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by Russo'sbride

When you mentioned 'he won in part b/c some of his suppoters were not able to distinguish fact from fiction'. To me that is an opinion not a fact but you are entitled to it.



Actually, it's not her opinion; it's a statement based on a survey conducted by a reputable organization.
ambersmom Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

Ignorance??? - I think that's a very large general sweep to make over the population of Bush supporters. But then again, you are all entitiled to your opinions...that's like saying all democrats supported the idea of Clinton getting some *head* in the oval office...


People had their reasons for voting for their candidate (whether it be Bush or Kerry) and articles like this are just going to perpetuate the ever-growing separation this county is experiencing.
Sassyz75 Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by ambersmom

Ignorance??? - I think that's a very large general sweep to make over the population of Bush supporters. But then again, you are all entitiled to your opinions...that's like saying all democrats supported the idea of Clinton getting some *head* in the oval office...


People had their reasons for voting for their candidate (whether it be Bush or Kerry) and articles like this are just going to perpetuate the ever-growing separation this county is experiencing.



It's not an article, it's an Op-Ed.

And there is a separation in this country- and it's going to stay that way until Bush stops using his adminstration as the sword of the Christian Right.. not everyone wants his 'values' in the White House.
verdila Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


KerrC Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by verdila

Here is an interesting article of why Bush won I found in an op-ed section-- and it is Michael Moore - yes thanks MM. Again, this is opinion.


'Not since Moby **** has a great white whale been so bloodily harpooned... In 2000, Mr Moore's support for Ralph Nader helped lose Florida for Al Gore. This time, he boosted President Bush by outraging Middle America. Take a bow, Mike: you've done it again.
I concur with the guys at RealClearPolitics: If you want to find one guy who cost Kerry this election more than anyone else (besides the candidate himself), your best bet might be Michael Moore.

And for all those voters who said their most important issue was 'values' - was a vote for Bush a vote against the values of Michael Moore? Against comparing Zarqawi to American minutemen? Against lamenting that the 9/11 attacks killed people who voted for Gore? Against charging that the war in Afghanistan was fought over a natural gas pipeline? Against creating a film that gets marketing assistance from Hezbollah? Against creating criticism of the president that gets echoed by Osama bin Laden?

Against conspiracy theories, and baseless charges, and an ugly, bile-green hatred of America that is used to rake in cash from adoring anti-American audiences overseas?'



What news source did this come from? Just curious.
verdila Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?

KerrC Posted:

Re: Why did Bush win? 'Values?' or Ignorance?


Posted by verdila

RealClearPolitics.com



I was just there...what publication?

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