LIWeddings.com
Post New Topic

Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?

Original post by Xelindrya

So How do you feel?

Im curious how 'we' here feel about it in general. Seeing as we are all getting married or are married. Admittedly our views are a bit skewed to the 'happily ever after'.

Then again, not everyone can have the same cookie cutter view of this but it's difficult to express that in a post without fear of being battered over it. So I created what I hope is a broad based poll.

If you view, please choose. Even if it's 'other'.

shelly3950 Posted:

Re: Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?

Well ladies, its been great debating. I am off. Willl continue this later.

Kriss2c Posted:

Re: Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?

Same here....

Xelindrya Posted:

Re: Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?

Just to add some spice to this topic..

I have to say I would prefer if the American public as a whole decided this. Not some judge.

Unless I'm mistake somewhere I posted the exact wording of Bush's stand on this and I agree.. He's not OUTLAWING same-sex marriage. He's saying that it's something the American people should decide not state Judges.

Do any of you see a problem with this? I mean if the whole constitutional vote was left to this poll alone, the amendment would pass. What's the issue? Why not let it be done a thorough and finite way? Heck that was the whole issue on Abortion rights wasn't it? There are still folks who think abortions should be outlawed but as the constitution stands (thank god) women still have the right to choose.

..... Any thoughts?
eogara Posted:

Re: Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?

Posted by kel2004

Posted by meghanmetz


Second of all, if that 'piece of paper' wasn't that important, why do ANY of us get married?


People get married for religious reasons, and to start families, neither of which is possible in gay marriage.


Wow, that was pretty overgeneralized, don't you think? I'm not getting married for any religious reasons whatsoever and if I wanted to start a family, I see no reason that I have to be married to do so. Don't presume things about other people just because that's your case.

People get married to be a family, not necessarily to start one. What about marriages where neither person in the couple is religious and they either cannot or choose not to have children - is that 'not a marriage'? Gay couples cannot even visit one another in the intensive care unit of a hospital because THEY ARE NOT MARRIED. Doesn't sound like the same rights to me. Two people who have lived together and share their life for however many years are unable to see their 'partner' in the hospital because they're not considered family. This is right to you??
kel2004 Posted:

Re: Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?

Posted by eogara


Wow, that was pretty overgeneralized, don't you think? I'm not getting married for any religious reasons whatsoever and if I wanted to start a family, I see no reason that I have to be married to do so. Don't presume things about other people just because that's your case.

People get married to be a family, not necessarily to start one. What about marriages where neither person in the couple is religious and they either cannot or choose not to have children - is that 'not a marriage'? Gay couples cannot even visit one another in the intensive care unit of a hospital because THEY ARE NOT MARRIED. Doesn't sound like the same rights to me. Two people who have lived together and share their life for however many years are unable to see their 'partner' in the hospital because they're not considered family. This is right to you??


Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was not saying that these are the only reasons for people getting married, nor did I say they are my reasons for getting married.

I was just offering up the other side of the debate. I am not against gay marriage. I don't really care if gay people want to get married.

Also, I never said it was right for partners not to be able to see their loved ones in the hospital. I was just pointing out that there are legal ways for gay couples to prevent that from happening. Others on the board have pointed out that these legal ways don't always work, which I think is interesting, and also a shame.
eogara Posted:

Re: Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?

Posted by kel2004

I think a lot of the differing opinions are based on this: Some people think of being gay as a lifestyle choice, whereas being born black or born a woman, is not by choice. Therefore the comparisons to the civil rights and women's suffrage movements don't make sense. Others feel that being gay is not a choice, and that's just how you are born, and then you can draw the comparison to the others... Just an observation...


Do you really think so? You know, that almost gives me hope. I can deal with ignorance (to an extent) and if people truly believe that being gay is just something you decide to do, hopefully once they receive enough information there won't be any problem with marriage.

Gay and lesbian teens have the highest rate of suicide for any one group of people, second only to anorexics. Why would someone kill themselves over something they CHOSE?? If that were true, there wouldn't be cases and cases found in literature from the beginning of time. And do you (general You here) honestly believe that anyone would CHOOSE to be berated and told they are not worthy of the same life choices that the 'normal' people are worthy of? That these people would choose to lose family and friends over this due to their ignorance?

To all of you who believe gay marriage is wrong or whatever, is it because you think that being gay is a choice that people make?
eogara Posted:

Re: Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?

Posted by BMD'sPeanut

I am curious to know why those who feel so strongly in favor of gay marriage, feel so strongly.

I mean...What is the point of continously trying to drive your point(s) home?

I certainly do not feel as strongly against it as those who feel strongly for it.


The gall of people deciding who can marry and who can't really astounds me and is what sets me off on this. I stand by the fact that the treatment of women, blacks, hispanics, Jews, etc in this country is no different from the treatment of gays and this is an enormous aspect of it. I am putting myself in their position. FH is Jewish, I was raised Catholic. Since we are engaged, I am by definition a shiksa. It wasn't all that long ago that this was not the societal norm. I cannot imagine how I would feel if the government said to me 'we cannot sanction your marriage because it's just not right, it's not natural.' Can you imagine? I mean, honestly try to put yourself in their position and think of what that means. I think people demean relationships of gays and lesbians thinking they're not as important or serious as hetero relationships but they are. They feel as strongly as you or I do about our future spouse except for them, there is no possibility of being a spouse because someone else is uncomfortable with it. It really makes me sad for them and mad at the foolishness that's causing this.
Jenn524 Posted:

Re: Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?

Posted by don424

you totally misunderstood me -- because gays have never had to endure drinking out of a separate water fountain or stitting on the back of the bus, THAT is why it's not the same thing.

Gays are equal in society from what I see. And what's the big deal about marriage. Like I said, you can apply and receive medical benefits under 'domestic partner'. What's the big deal in having a piece of paper that says it's recognized by the govt. Are they really getting that much extra out of this? Most states already make provisions and allowances for same sex partners


Equal? That's big news to me. The fact that gay marriage is even a debate points out that they are not equal. How about how gay couples are afraid to show affection in publc because of what people will say? Or about how they go to separate bars because they are afraid of how they would be treated by people in straight bars. And I am not making this up. I am very close to a lot of gay people and this is how they feel. Now I know the arguement back is going to be well I don't make them feel that way. And maybe as one individual some people don't. But society as a whole does. Look at the kid, Matthew Shepard, that got beaten to death a couple of years back because he was gay. These hate crimes against gays remind me of how black people were treated ages ago. And as a society were not moving any closer to accepting gays.

Yes gay couples can adopt, but with the exception of Rosie O'Donell I'm sure it's a lot harder on them to adopt then a married straight couple. Maybe not even because they are gay but maybe because of the fact that their relationship is not seen as a commitment. I'm sure it's harder for straight couples who have been together for 10 years but never got married to adopt then it is for couples that are married. And I'm sure it's even harder on gay couples.

As far as the comments on why not just get a will, or a proxy in order to give yourself the additional benefits of marriage my question is, why should they have to go the extra lengths that straight couples don't have to go through? If something were to ever happen to me my husband would automatically be in charge of all my choices and he would be able to act out my wishes unless I set up a will stating differently. Why can't gay couples have the same rights?

To address the question of why do I feel so passionatly about it, my answer is simply because I do. Because I am tired of my gay friends not being able to show who they are out in the mall. I'm tired of them knowing that no matter how much they love someone this country wont recognize their relationship as a marriage. I see what they go through. I see the names they are called and the looks they are given. I have to ask when does it stop? When do we start realizing that gay people are humans and americans and they should be given the same rights that americans are given-meaning the right to marry each other in front of a judge. Again I'm not asking for religions to accept this but our FREE country should.
Xelindrya Posted:

Re: Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?

Making same sex marriage legal isnt going to take away the looks the stares the treatment of same sex couples.

Hell what do we have to call them 'gay' to begin with? Same sex to me is more PC.

I know SEVERAL communities where same sex couples are open in public with no fear.

You don't think I get funny looks when Jim & I walk around 'Check out the 'Spic with the 'Ch!nk' as I heard in Roosevelt field Mall once. So Im hispanic and he's Chinese. Our marriage is legal. It doesnt mean society will change just for a piece of paper.

Why make them go through the extra paperwork when it's not necessary for all of us? Because it SHOULD be necessary for all of us. If you CHOOSE not to do those important proxies and wills and lay out your choices when you're married you're stuck with your hubby's decisions. Case in point the woman who's brain dead but who's huband can't legally let her die in Florida because her 'family' is against it.

It's not the end of the world to ask them to fill out a few forms is it? And marriage certificate or proxy forms isnt gonna stop the hate crimes.

Blacks are STILL beaten and hung or dragged behind pickup trucks until their dead.

At least Same Sex couples get the benefit of civil rights without defining the color of their skin. Black or minority same sex couples or inter-racial same sex couples arent going to be protected by this piece of paper.

I disagree that the fight for racial freedom and equality comes close to the fight for rights of a couple.

I repeat. .... Let AMERICA choose if it's that important.. Make an amendment.

ETA:
Appartently the slang for Chinese is prohibited here .. but the slang for Hispanic isn't.
shelly3950 Posted:

Re: Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?

Posted by Xelindrya

Making same sex marriage legal isn't going to take away the looks the stares the treatment of same sex couples.'

Just like it doesn't change for interracial couples. But the more in the norm it becomes, the more People will get used to it.


'I know SEVERAL communities where same sex couples are open in public with no fear.'

And there are some where they are.

'You don't think I get funny looks when Jim & I walk around 'Check out the 'Spic with the 'Ch!nk' as I heard in Roosevelt field Mall once. So Im hispanic and he's Chinese. Our marriage is legal. It doesnt mean society will change just for a piece of paper.

Why make them go through the extra paperwork when it's not necessary for all of us? Because it SHOULD be necessary for all of us. If you CHOOSE not to do those important proxies and wills and lay out your choices when you're married you're stuck with your hubby's decisions. Case in point the woman who's brain dead but who's huband can't legally let her die in Florida because her 'family' is against it.'

But most of the time, the spouse makes the decision without contest. Although there are cases in straight couples where this is an issue, more times than not, it isn't.

'It's not the end of the world to ask them to fill out a few forms is it? And marriage certificate or proxy forms isnt gonna stop the hate crimes.

Blacks are STILL beaten and hung or dragged behind pickup trucks until their dead. '

Same as gays. Remember Matthew Shepard?

'At least Same Sex couples get the benefit of civil rights without defining the color of their skin. Black or minority same sex couples or inter-racial same sex couples arent going to be protected by this piece of paper.

I disagree that the fight for racial freedom and equality comes close to the fight for rights of a couple.'

Unless you consider the right to marry a fundamental right- which the Supreme Court of the United States does. Not to mentino religion. You can't tell someone's religion by looking at them (usually) but the are entitled to equal rights.h

'I repeat. .... Let AMERICA choose if it's that important.. Make an amendment. I agree completely.'

unfortunately, it isn't up to America, but up to the politicians.

We have to remember, this is a relatively new concept. Gays weren't even out (not the way they are now) until the 1980's. I never saw an openly gay couple until the 1990's. Does anyone remember when seeing an interracial couple was new. Now it is very common. Same with couples of different religions. There were laws forbidding blacks and whites to marry for a long time, that was tossed in the 70's (I think).
Jenn524 Posted:

Re: Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?

I didn't mean to imply that it would take away the stares but I think it's a start to accepting same sex couples.

I know that blacks are still beaten but it's not as common now as it was 100 years ago or even 50 years ago. Unfortunatly it probably wont ever stop. Because feelings of hate get passed on from generation to generation. I simply wanted to make the point that I don't think gay people are treated as equals. And that in many ways they are being treated in the same manners as black people were over time. Not that they have their own water fountain or that they can't vote. But that they get looked down upon and that they are afraid to show their true self in public. They are now the victim of hate crimes as well.

I have a friend who is gay and he is a teacher. He is scared to death that someone is going to find out and he's going to be forced to 'retire.' He's afraid of having a serious relationship because of it, he is forced to hide his true self because of how society views gay people-especially gay males that interact with children. I feel that if we allowed same sex couples to marry then as a society we are starting to show more acceptance. And that is something that probably wont have an effect on my friend specifically but maybe 50 years from now a gay teacher would be able to come out. I just feel that it all starts with this.

As far as the paperwork goes I agree that everyone should fill out a will and their proxy form so that it's your choice. But the fact is that a straight couple doesn't have to. And yes filling out the extra paperwork is a lot to ask because you're asking same sex couples to do something different. And that's what I think is wrong. Will it stop hate crimes? No. But I feel that allowing marriages will pass along the message to the next generations that gay people should not be treated differently.
heidla Posted:

Re: Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?

Posted by Xelindrya

Making same sex marriage legal isnt going to take away the looks the stares the treatment of same sex couples.

Hell what do we have to call them 'gay' to begin with? Same sex to me is more PC.

I know SEVERAL communities where same sex couples are open in public with no fear.

You don't think I get funny looks when Jim & I walk around 'Check out the 'Spic with the 'Ch!nk' as I heard in Roosevelt field Mall once. So Im hispanic and he's Chinese. Our marriage is legal. It doesnt mean society will change just for a piece of paper.

Why make them go through the extra paperwork when it's not necessary for all of us? Because it SHOULD be necessary for all of us. If you CHOOSE not to do those important proxies and wills and lay out your choices when you're married you're stuck with your hubby's decisions. Case in point the woman who's brain dead but who's huband can't legally let her die in Florida because her 'family' is against it.

It's not the end of the world to ask them to fill out a few forms is it? And marriage certificate or proxy forms isnt gonna stop the hate crimes.

Blacks are STILL beaten and hung or dragged behind pickup trucks until their dead.

At least Same Sex couples get the benefit of civil rights without defining the color of their skin. Black or minority same sex couples or inter-racial same sex couples arent going to be protected by this piece of paper.

I disagree that the fight for racial freedom and equality comes close to the fight for rights of a couple.

I repeat. .... Let AMERICA choose if it's that important.. Make an amendment.

ETA:
Appartently the slang for Chinese is prohibited here .. but the slang for Hispanic isn't.



No, equal rights will not stop the stares, but it might help with understanding. Let's face it there will always be prejudice people, but I don't have to culture it which is IMO exactly what not allowing same sex marriage is helping to do. It is saying that because they are different they are not to be treated equally.

As far as the knowing several communities where gays are open. Why should they have to be confined to only being able to show their affection in these communities? Why not just do like we did to the lepers and they can have their own island.

I think that the point that is being missed is that this is just one point on the ladder. I honestly don't see how people can't see the similarities between this and the civil rights movement. In the 1980's when AIDS first became a known enemy members of the gay community were fired from their jobs, denied health insurance, beaten and feared. Hell, they still are today. I don't see how you can not see the parells. Yes, maybe they can more easily hide their 'difference'. It is not a skin color, but no matter what people should not have to do such things to be excepted by society.

No, it is not that big of a deal to fill out a few forms, but why not let one of those be the application for their marriage license!!!
StayandJohn Posted:

Re: Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?

Posted by eogara

I'd be really interested in reading it if you could let me know the verse, etc.

Thanks.


Leviticus 19:22
heidla Posted:

Re: Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?


Leviticus 18:22 states 'You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.' Leviticus 20:13 adds a penalty and states 'If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.'

So, should we start killing people because the Bible tells us so? Seems a little harsh if you ask me.

ETA: Sounds like lesbians are safe.
LoriH Posted:

Re: Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?

Posted by don424

By the way, I was talking with my FIL about this last night and he SWEARS there is a passge denouncing homosexuality in the Bible. Now, I know, a bunch of don't care what the Bible says, but supposedly, it's out there.



There is a passage in the bible that denounces homosexuality and right after that, verse 21 on the next page states you should stone a child who is not obedient to death. Exodus 21:07 states it is OK to sell your daughter into slavery. And according to Exodus 35:02 Anyone working on the Sabbath day should be put to death.

Sorry but it gets me annoyed that people quote passages from the bible that suit their beliefs to make it ok. Before you quote the bible understand that there are many passages in there that you would probably be disgusted by.

If we used the bible for moral code we would be in a lot of trouble.
Xelindrya Posted:

Re: Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?

Posted by heidla
ETA: Sounds like lesbians are safe.




Who says the Bible isnt sexist?

Afterall Ladies of the times would have the Ladies in wait do more than just 'wait' on them if you get what I mean. It's a historical fact that the Ladies in Waiting would perfrom sexual favors on their Ladies should that Lady require it. Not all, but it was a common practice.



boosh78201 Posted:

Re: Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?

Heres a question, if gays want to be treated equal and the same like everyone else, then why do they have gay bars and gay restaurants?

BMD'sPeanut Posted:

Re: Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?

Posted by boosh78201

Heres a question, if gays want to be treated equal and the same like everyone else, then why do they have gay bars and gay restaurants?



I've often wondered this myself. You can't be seperate AND the same.
kel2004 Posted:

Re: Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?

Posted by boosh78201

Heres a question, if gays want to be treated equal and the same like everyone else, then why do they have gay bars and gay restaurants?



And parades...
shelly3950 Posted:

Re: Same Sex Marriage is Mass.. how do you feel about it?

Posted by kel2004

Posted by boosh78201

Heres a question, if gays want to be treated equal and the same like everyone else, then why do they have gay bars and gay restaurants?



And parades...


Well, first of all I have never heard of a gay restaurant. As for bars, gays bars don't exlcude straight people, they are just heavily populated by gays- just like Irish bars, Latin clubs, etc... The fact of the matter is people like to socialize with their own kind- that includes sexuality, race, culture, religion, etc... so under that logic, all teh Irish Pubs on 2nd Avenue are prejudice????

Same with parade!! St. Patrick's day is an Irish celebration, not to mention the PR day parade, Brazilian parade, DR parade. Just because people have a unique culture doesn't mean they can't both celebrate that culture and have the same rigths as the rest of society. That just doesn't make sense!!

Reply to this topic

Log in to reply or quote a post.