Re: A nice debate for a Monday morning

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Posted by Sassyz75


You must have a really great accountant- b/c with his tax break and the marriage deduction we STILL owed and we don't make a lot of $$ ($85k combined) and we both have our taxes witheld at 0 at higher single rate....

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No -- I don't have any tricky accounting secrets - we earn more than 85k combined, but with 401k/ROTHIRAs and other tax deferring vehicles, our TAXABLE income was slightly under 100k, but my point was that the tax codes changed with Bush tax cuts. 33% tax bracket I think went down, and the 27% tax bracket went to 25% and so on I think, plus the marriage penalty was eliminated...it was more than just those checks that were mailed out....so I paid less income taxes than I would have a few yrs ago under the older codes. Also, if you own property - that helps too.

Re: A nice debate for a Monday morning

Do you really think we should be paying fewer taxes with a WAR going on, and children starving and without health insurance, with social security in so much dnager and college tuition so high?

Me and FH make a lot less than you and DH, and we wouldn't mind giving MORE $$. I mean, I get annoyed looking at my paychecks, mainly b/c I don't like funding this war, but at the same time, there's so much suffering in this country that nees ot be alleviatd. When firehouses are closing, and we don't have the border patrol that we need and public education sucks in plain english, I don't think lower taxes are the answer.

Re: A nice debate for a Monday morning

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Posted by verdila

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Posted by Sassyz75


You must have a really great accountant- b/c with his tax break and the marriage deduction we STILL owed and we don't make a lot of $$ ($85k combined) and we both have our taxes witheld at 0 at higher single rate....

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No -- I don't have any tricky accounting secrets - we earn more than 85k combined, but with 401k/ROTHIRAs and other tax deferring vehicles, our TAXABLE income was slightly under 100k, but my point was that the tax codes changed with Bush tax cuts. 33% tax bracket I think went down, and the 27% tax bracket went to 25% and so on I think, plus the marriage penalty was eliminated...it was more than just those checks that were mailed out....so I paid less income taxes than I would have a few yrs ago under the older codes. Also, if you own property - that helps too.

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Well we still owe and owe a lot.
we can't afford to buy or save on our 401k.. we are stretched to the max and my husband works two jobs- so I have to tell you- His tax cut did SQUAT for us because we can't 'play the system' to get the cut- we just pay up like poor shlubs while people who make more than us get tax cuts...

Re: A nice debate for a Monday morning

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Posted by verdila

but my point was that the tax codes changed with Bush tax cuts. 33% tax bracket I think went down, and the 27% tax bracket went to 25% and so on I think, plus the marriage penalty was eliminated...it was more than just those checks that were mailed out....so I paid less income taxes than I would have a few yrs ago under the older codes. Also, if you own property - that helps too.

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My tax bracket was lowered as well. And I don't make over 200k a year like Kerry says Bush's tax cuts only helped. I am not even close to 200k.

Re: A nice debate for a Monday morning

I haven't been following this whole debate, but I just want to add that if Bush does get re-elected he is going to have to raise taxes. There is no other way -- the defecit and spending are way out of control. Bush Senior pledged he wouldn't raise taxes and he went back on that promise in his second term. Regan raised taxes in his second term, too.

Re: A nice debate for a Monday morning

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Well we still owe and owe a lot.
we can't afford to buy or save on our 401k.. we are stretched to the max and my husband works two jobs- so I have to tell you- His tax cut did SQUAT for us because we can't 'play the system' to get the cut- we just pay up like poor shlubs while people who make more than us get tax cuts...

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But...every one got tax cuts under Bush...not just the 'rich.' So, his tax cut put more money in everybody's pockets (whether you agree with it in principle or not.) I, for one, prefer to keep as much as my hard earned money as possible!!!

Re: A nice debate for a Monday morning

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Posted by Sassyz75

Well we still owe and owe a lot.
we can't afford to buy or save on our 401k.. we are stretched to the max and my husband works two jobs- so I have to tell you- His tax cut did SQUAT for us because we can't 'play the system' to get the cut- we just pay up like poor shlubs while people who make more than us get tax cuts...

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Hey - I'm sorry that the cuts didn't help you - I know there are lots of people struggling to get by out there. And that stinks. But, hey I ain't living in a mansion, not even close, and I work very hard to get where I am.
All I am saying is that most people should have seen some tax relief with the latest cuts. There are lots of ways to reduce your taxable income as well. Perhaps, you can put a little towards your 401k -- I do w/o a cup of Starbucks in the mornings like I see so many people doing and I bring my lunch most days. check out this website -- it explains some tax cuts and also how to lower your taxable income. Not to plug it but I work for one of the sister companies of CCH - a tax publisher.

http://www.finance.cch.com/

http://www.cch.com/BushTaxPlan/TaxBracketChanges.htm

If you see here, everyone who pays taxes got a break.

Re: A nice debate for a Monday morning

Keep in mind that Kerry believes that the rich get a larger PROPORTION Of the tax cuts- and that is correct. While everyone saw some type of tax cut (although we personally didn't feel it- although we've heard we could have had the potential to pay more).

You all are misunderstanding that the people who make 200k got a higher proportion of the tax cuts than those making under 200k- which is why he wants to roll back those tax cuts. Kerry is basically saying WHY should those that make the most get the highest proportion of the tax cuts... which is what was received under the Bush tax cuts.

He never said ONLY people who make over 200k got a tax cut.

Re: A nice debate for a Monday morning

But he makes it look that way to some people ....If you think about the people who Kerry says got the bigger cuts - the over 150k or so crowd. Well, first of all there are less of them and they already pay a larger chunk of taxes than anyone else already - but the majority of people who are in that earnings bracket probably live in areas like NYC/LI/NJ where 150,000 for a family of 4 doesn't exactly get you much....but in a free society I think all people shuold get some tax cuts. Even the rich. You do realize that someone who earns 311,000 in taxable income still pays over 100k in taxes. That's a lot of money- more than one third of what they earn.

Secondly, if you look at the lowest levels of earnings - people who were making 12k and were getting taxed at 15%, are now getting taxed at 10% tax rate.

Re: A nice debate for a Monday morning

I don't think anyone should get a tax cut while we're at war and there are so many mich needed programs that go unfunded.

Re: A nice debate for a Monday morning

Go socialism...

Re: A nice debate for a Monday morning

I also feel that if this law does get passed, woman will still be able to get abortions, it will just be hardier, but that JMO.

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no one is pro-abortion. I don't think I could have an abortion - thankfully I've never had to make that decision. But I think the pro-choice/pro-life distinction is incorrect. No one is anti-life. People are pro-choice or anti choice. I think the biggest mistake pro-choicers have made regarding this issue is to refer to the opposition as 'pro-life.'

I'm pro-life - I'm pro women's lives, children's lives, etc. But regarding this issue, fundamentally I am pro-choice - I could not make that decision for any person other than myself - and I dont want anyone making this private decision for me.

I wish there was need for women to have abortions - I wish there were no rapes, no faulty birth controls, no sexual assaults, etc. Do some people act irresponsibly and make the wrong choices - yes. Should adoption be encouraged - yes - but I dont believe it should be the only option (along with abstinence) that is presented to women. The fact is that women will continue to have abortions whether they are legal or not and I believe we MUST keep them safe and legal. Women die all over the world from illegal, back alley abortions - and while it is not a practice anyone likes, it is a choice that I believe we must protect.

Kerry voted not to ban partial birth abortions because there was no stipulation that the practice be allowed only to save the life of the mother. So if a woman is in a car accident and the procedure must be done to save her life (or greatly increase the chances of her survival) it cannot be done. I don't see how that is valuing a mother's life.

Re: A nice debate for a Monday morning

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Posted by verdila

Go socialism...

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I think there's a difference between socialism and social safety net.

when we had our greatest growth of the middle class it was under FDR after WWII when he created all those great programs to grow the economy... that isn't socialism.. those are social programs.

France, England and Germany aren't socialist.. they are democracies with social programs.. because they believe that you are entitled to a certain level of comfort and care as a human being and that you shouldn't go hungry or not be able to work b/c you can't get your kid in day care and you should be rewarded for long work at a company, not just fired at whim b/c the share holders want more of a return and the poor schlub who's been working for 20+ years gets the can while the fat cat at the top gets a bonus.

I think as a society sometimes sh!t happens, and you should be able to depend upon your fellow man to help you out- yes, people take advantage of the system- but you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... when you get old, when you get hurt real bad and can't work, if you get cancer and you use all your $$$ on treatments- sometimes you need help- and not everyone gets a foundation named after them or a huge fund, and you'll need help.. but I guess that's socialism and evil so everything should be 'free market survival of the fittest'

Frankly- if that's socialism maybe I should move...

And yes, while 150k doesn't get you much on LI it gets you way more than what MOST Americans are living with.. and if you sent someone up from Kansas or even rural Florida they'd think you were rich (or any one of us probably)

Re: A nice debate for a Monday morning

well if we're gonna keep abortions legal does that mean we have to make the death penalty illegal

Re: A nice debate for a Monday morning

I ave to agree 100% with Sassy. And $$ isne't everything. We had a fmaily fo 4 wiht just my dad working and he made a LOT less than 150, To this day he amkes a lot less, but he managed to make sure we always had food and clothing and a roof over our heads. I think $150K buys a LOT. If we had $150K I'd think we were SO rich. And I think all the time about the peope in the world who think I'm SO rich because I can afford to eat 3 meals per day and I have a car and a computer, etc.

I've spent the past 2 summers volunteering with an org that helps underserved HS students get into college, and I see first hand what poverty can do, and these kids aren't THAT poor, there are kids that are far more poor, and have no heath insurance, no safety net at all.

I know not everyone's a fan of Michael Moore, but one scene in Bowling for Columbine really touched me, the sotry about the mom who had to commute 60 miles to her 'workfare' job and couldn't be home to take care of her son. her son, unsupervised, undereducated, somehow got inot his uncle's gun closet and shot another child. He will NEVER have a normal life, and he didn't know he was killing someone. He wasn't violent. He thought it was like a game, and none of it would ahve happenned if his mom had been able to be home with him.

there are also plenty of programs like Head Start, which help these same kids get the start they need to grow up with better opporunities than they would have ahd otherwise and these programs and direly underfunded. I don't think it's really socialism, I think it makes SENSE in a free market society to fund these programs because educating a child and keeping a child properly cared for cost a LOT less than keeping him in jail 20 years down the line.

Re: A nice debate for a Monday morning

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Posted by don424

well if we're gonna keep abortions legal does that mean we have to make the death penalty illegal

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Isn't that Bush's idiotic thinking reversed? Make abortion illegal and death penalty legal?

Re: A nice debate for a Monday morning

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Posted by Sassyz75

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Posted by verdila

Go socialism...

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I think there's a difference between socialism and social safety net.

when we had our greatest growth of the middle class it was under FDR after WWII when he created all those great programs to grow the economy... that isn't socialism.. those are social programs.

France, England and Germany aren't socialist.. they are democracies with social programs.. because they believe that you are entitled to a certain level of comfort and care as a human being and that you shouldn't go hungry or not be able to work b/c you can't get your kid in day care and you should be rewarded for long work at a company, not just fired at whim b/c the share holders want more of a return and the poor schlub who's been working for 20+ years gets the can while the fat cat at the top gets a bonus.

I think as a society sometimes sh!t happens, and you should be able to depend upon your fellow man to help you out- yes, people take advantage of the system- but you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... when you get old, when you get hurt real bad and can't work, if you get cancer and you use all your $$$ on treatments- sometimes you need help- and not everyone gets a foundation named after them or a huge fund, and you'll need help.. but I guess that's socialism and evil so everything should be 'free market survival of the fittest'

Frankly- if that's socialism maybe I should move...

And yes, while 150k doesn't get you much on LI it gets you way more than what MOST Americans are living with.. and if you sent someone up from Kansas or even rural Florida they'd think you were rich (or any one of us probably)

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Obviously we have diff views - and neither is right or wrong - just different ways of looking at the world, I believe there needs to be some reform in this country but I do not want to be taxed more than half of my salary. Period.

France, England and Germany have much lower standards of living than in America. Even in the lower levels in the US. England taxes their workers half or more of their wages. A friend of mine is married to a British and she lived there for awhile before moving back to NJ. Her inlaws were shocked at the house they were able to buy here and they thought her standard of living is much better here.

Are you kidding - Have you been on the Home boards here...and have you seen the crapboxes on LI that are going for 300k? And have you seen the houses in Kansas and rural areas of the midwest- they would go for like 1mill dollars here and they get so much more property. I used to rent an apt in the city for 1200 a month and it was the size of a shoebox and old - no modern conveniences. They would be disgusted at what 1200/mo buys you here.

And MaryMoon- I know you respect Michael Moore - that guy brings some sad stories to his movies, sure, but he twists them around too.

I TOTALLY do not respect MM at all - his propaganda is dangerous and what is he really doing anyway - making TONS of money off of pointing out what he thinks are social ills and does not use facts to prove his points but rather clever editing. In fact, I read that he sends his kids to private schools. He says he supports the US troops but in his movie he makes them look like total idiots. However, in a free country he has every right to do that. And thats what makes this country great.

Re: A nice debate for a Monday morning

I just personally think not everything needs to be freemarket... This government thinks that when an industry is failing that they need to make it more 'market like' which often times makes the industry worse.

Certain things need to be market controled- because not every industry should be in existance to maximize their profits.

For example, I personally think there should be tighter governmental control over the pharma industry. If there were, we probably wouldn't be in the mess we're in now with the flu shot shortage. An industry like pharam's number once concern should be saving lives, not making profits. But because they are free market, and have shareholders, their #1 reason of being is to make money, not save lives.

If there were tighter controls on that industry there would be more flu vaccines and less Viagra.