Re: A letter to John Kerry -- in today's NY Post

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Posted by eogara

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Posted by MrsTC

i think the point of the letter was to emphasize that regardless of politics, most soldiers are serving their country and are happy to do it - even if it means taking the chance of getting killed. we may not like this or agree with this but they signed up for the service and are ready and willing to go where assigned. this is just my view of reading the letter.

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That's how I saw it too. I too am sick and tired of people calling those in the armed services 'victims.' That completely undermines their intelligence and free will. You know better than they what they want they want for themselves?? I don't think so.

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As far as I know, when you are in the military you don't have free will. YOu are told where to go and you have to go or else you will be thrown in jail. if that isn't the case, please let me know.

Also- while the soliders did have free will in enlisting in the armed services, the majority of these brave men & women enlisted during peaceful times. And I dare say that the majority of them never expected to go to war. Maybe that was foolish of them... but I know a lot of my friends and family (a lot of cousins) that are in and were in the armed services did so b/c they didn't know what else to do with their lives- and they wanted to take advantage of the GI bill...

So, I don't think they really have free will- as soon as they sign those enlistment papers they are property of the U.S. Government.

Re: A letter to John Kerry -- in today's NY Post

Along the same lines, this was on CNN.com today. (Direct Link) Last line is the most powerful.

WILMINGTON, Ohio (AP) -- **** Cheney came face-to-face with the war in Iraq when a 62-year-old grandmother confronted him on the campaign trail.

Phyllis Hobbs told Cheney she had sacrificed a grandson to the war.

'I'd like a little peace,' she pleaded with the vice president.

With an electorate divided by the Bush administration's actions in Iraq, Hobbs' remark to Cheney on Monday in an Ohio town of 15,000 reflected both the war's personal cost and the determination of many Americans like Hobbs to see it through to a successful conclusion. (Showdown state Ohio)

More than a thousand American soldiers have been killed in Iraq, but few families have been as deeply affected by it as the Hobbses.

Hobbs' son, her daughter-in-law and another grandson all have served in Iraq, and her son is headed back for another stint, probably around Thanksgiving.

Her daughter-in-law just re-enlisted and would be heading back to Iraq too, but she's pregnant, and will go next year instead.

Hobbs' other grandson, a Special Forces soldier, just returned and 'I hope he's home for good,' she said.

Her grandson Steven D. Conover, 21, was among the U.S. soldiers killed last November when insurgents in Fallujah shot down the Chinook helicopter he was riding in.

Devastated by the loss and the fear of what else could happen, Hobbs said her health deteriorated to the point where she suffered kidney failure the month after her grandson's death, putting her in a wheelchair.

Cheney spotted her in her wheelchair in an audience of rabid Bush-Cheney supporters and invited her to ask him a question.

Hobbs asked Cheney, 'Is there anybody who knows a time limit' for pulling out of Iraq? 'I have four over there. ... I had one killed. ... I'd like a little peace.'

Given to understatement, the vice president calmly replied: 'I appreciate very much obviously the sacrifice they made. ... If you put an artificial date on it, what with the terrorists just waiting until that day arrives, Americans withdraw, and then they'll reinsert themselves, that's not acceptable.'

Minutes later, Cheney's wife, who appears with him at most campaign events, was in deep conversation with Hobbs, who said later she was pleased by their comments.

Far from being bitter about her loss and the uncertainty surrounding when the troops will come home, Hobbs recalled the words of her grandson a few days before he died, a memory to which she proudly clings.

'He said, 'Grandma, if anything is going to happen to any of us, make sure they continue with the war until it's finished,' ' she said.

Re: A letter to John Kerry -- in today's NY Post

Even if they enlisted AFTER the war started, they are victims like we all are. Because we are supposed to be able to TRUST that the commander in chief will not send our troops into harms' way without a good reason, or the proper strategy adn equipment. All of them signed up trusting that, or else they woudln;t have enlisted, but Bush turned out to not be so trustworthy after all. and that's what it's about. I have no doubt that these men and women are willing to do what it tkaes to serve the country and they are happy to do it, but they shouldnt be risking their lives unless it's 1) absolutel neccessary and 2) backed by a plan that will show how and when they will come home. Neither of these is the case, as has been proven over and over and over again. The US governemt has failed all of us, especially the brave troops.

Re: A letter to John Kerry -- in today's NY Post

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Posted by Sassyz75
As far as I know, when you are in the military you don't have free will. YOu are told where to go and you have to go or else you will be thrown in jail. if that isn't the case, please let me know.

Also- while the soliders did have free will in enlisting in the armed services, the majority of these brave men & women enlisted during peaceful times. And I dare say that the majority of them never expected to go to war. Maybe that was foolish of them... but I know a lot of my friends and family (a lot of cousins) that are in and were in the armed services did so b/c they didn't know what else to do with their lives- and they wanted to take advantage of the GI bill...

So, I don't think they really have free will- as soon as they sign those enlistment papers they are property of the U.S. Government.

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And as far as I know, we have free will in this country.

I'm sorry but how dare you assume that you know what is best for these ADULTS who themselves have made the decision to join the armed forces. What do you think, the only people who are part of this joined beforehand without the realization that at some point they may be called upon to complete their duty?? Nice to give credit to their intelligence. These are not mentally retarded people, they are adults like you or I and I think it is beyond arrogant to assume that YOU understand their wants and needs better than they do, calling them victims and saying 'they didn't know what they were doing.'

Re: A letter to John Kerry -- in today's NY Post

I do not support this war. I support these brave men and woman fighting for this country. But I know several soldiers who have been to Iraq 2 or 3 times and werent happy to go the first time cause they don't support this war!

Re: A letter to John Kerry -- in today's NY Post

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Posted by eogara

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Posted by Sassyz75
As far as I know, when you are in the military you don't have free will. YOu are told where to go and you have to go or else you will be thrown in jail. if that isn't the case, please let me know.

Also- while the soliders did have free will in enlisting in the armed services, the majority of these brave men & women enlisted during peaceful times. And I dare say that the majority of them never expected to go to war. Maybe that was foolish of them... but I know a lot of my friends and family (a lot of cousins) that are in and were in the armed services did so b/c they didn't know what else to do with their lives- and they wanted to take advantage of the GI bill...

So, I don't think they really have free will- as soon as they sign those enlistment papers they are property of the U.S. Government.

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And as far as I know, we have free will in this country.

I'm sorry but how dare you assume that you know what is best for these ADULTS who themselves have made the decision to join the armed forces. What do you think, the only people who are part of this joined beforehand without the realization that at some point they may be called upon to complete their duty?? Nice to give credit to their intelligence. These are not mentally retarded people, they are adults like you or I and I think it is beyond arrogan to assume that YOU understand their wants and needs better than they do, calling them victims and saying 'they didn't know what they were doing.'

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maybe you should re-read what I wrote and leave the 'how dare yous' out of it.

I said that when you are in the military you cannot just pick and choose what jobs you are going to fulfill or where you want to go. You do what you are told or else you are court martialed and possibly go to jail.

My statement wasn't political at all.

I simply said when you are in the military you don't have free will. Whether you believe in the war or not, if you are told to go to Iraq, you go. Or you go to jail.
Maybe you consider that free will, but I certainly do not.

Secondly, I never said, 'they didn't know what they were doing'.. but for you to think that there aren't men and women in the service that signed up because they didn't have any other options available to them, then maybe you are, 'beyond arrogant'... not everyone in the military marches behind Bush's banner of war.

Re: A letter to John Kerry -- in today's NY Post

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Posted by Xelindrya

That is a great letter.

All politics aside, it's one man's true feelings. It can not be taken apart as anti Kerry or Pro Bush.

It's a father's heart being poured out into paper. . .
You can't blame a father for being honest and open about his personal feelings. There's no politics to this, just truth.

Even if Kerry meant what he said, can you see what it means to a father like this? You can't take that away from him. Period.

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well, the father is Steve Dunleavy - who is entitled to speak his mind on ANY issue - and certainly can write a letter to John Kerry about the important issue of the Iraq War. . .but let's also keep in mind that Steve Dunleavy is a regular columnist for the NY Post and often writes political editorials which are conservative. Again, he can write what he wants - but this isn't an apolitical letter.

Re: A letter to John Kerry -- in today's NY Post

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Posted by Sassyz75

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Posted by eogara

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Posted by Sassyz75
As far as I know, when you are in the military you don't have free will. YOu are told where to go and you have to go or else you will be thrown in jail. if that isn't the case, please let me know.

Also- while the soliders did have free will in enlisting in the armed services, the majority of these brave men & women enlisted during peaceful times. And I dare say that the majority of them never expected to go to war. Maybe that was foolish of them... but I know a lot of my friends and family (a lot of cousins) that are in and were in the armed services did so b/c they didn't know what else to do with their lives- and they wanted to take advantage of the GI bill...

So, I don't think they really have free will- as soon as they sign those enlistment papers they are property of the U.S. Government.

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And as far as I know, we have free will in this country.

I'm sorry but how dare you assume that you know what is best for these ADULTS who themselves have made the decision to join the armed forces. What do you think, the only people who are part of this joined beforehand without the realization that at some point they may be called upon to complete their duty?? Nice to give credit to their intelligence. These are not mentally retarded people, they are adults like you or I and I think it is beyond arrogan to assume that YOU understand their wants and needs better than they do, calling them victims and saying 'they didn't know what they were doing.'

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maybe you should re-read what I wrote and leave the 'how dare yous' out of it.

I said that when you are in the military you cannot just pick and choose what jobs you are going to fulfill or where you want to go. You do what you are told or else you are court martialed and possibly go to jail.

My statement wasn't political at all.

I simply said when you are in the military you don't have free will. Whether you believe in the war or not, if you are told to go to Iraq, you go. Or you go to jail.
Maybe you consider that free will, but I certainly do not.

Secondly, I never said, 'they didn't know what they were doing'.. but for you to think that there aren't men and women in the service that signed up because they didn't have any other options available to them, then maybe you are, 'beyond arrogant'... not everyone in the military marches behind Bush's banner of war.

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I have reread your post again and I still think it's totally arrogant. You don't have to march behind anyone's banner to support the decision of those who CHOSE to go into the military. Of course there are people who don't want to be there for various reasons - that's the case of any war, even the highly touted WWII. However, that doesn't mean that this is the majority of those serving and I think to say otherwise is simply conjecture.

Re: A letter to John Kerry -- in today's NY Post

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Posted by takeoutcook

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Posted by Xelindrya

That is a great letter.

All politics aside, it's one man's true feelings. It can not be taken apart as anti Kerry or Pro Bush.

It's a father's heart being poured out into paper. . .
You can't blame a father for being honest and open about his personal feelings. There's no politics to this, just truth.

Even if Kerry meant what he said, can you see what it means to a father like this? You can't take that away from him. Period.

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well, the father is Steve Dunleavy - who is entitled to speak his mind on ANY issue - and certainly can write a letter to John Kerry about the important issue of the Iraq War. . .but let's also keep in mind that Steve Dunleavy is a regular columnist for the NY Post and often writes political editorials which are conservative. Again, he can write what he wants - but this isn't an apolitical letter.

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Thank you for pointing that out. There were a couple of lines, especially the Jane Fonda dig, that seemed a bit out line simply coming from a proud father -- makes more sense now.

Re: A letter to John Kerry -- in today's NY Post

Yes, thanks I didn't know who he was. But it IS very political, and now it amkes even MORE sense.

Re: A letter to John Kerry -- in today's NY Post

OH boy, leave it to my husband to start controversy

Re: A letter to John Kerry -- in today's NY Post

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Posted by eogara

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Posted by Sassyz75

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Posted by eogara

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Posted by Sassyz75
As far as I know, when you are in the military you don't have free will. YOu are told where to go and you have to go or else you will be thrown in jail. if that isn't the case, please let me know.

Also- while the soliders did have free will in enlisting in the armed services, the majority of these brave men & women enlisted during peaceful times. And I dare say that the majority of them never expected to go to war. Maybe that was foolish of them... but I know a lot of my friends and family (a lot of cousins) that are in and were in the armed services did so b/c they didn't know what else to do with their lives- and they wanted to take advantage of the GI bill...

So, I don't think they really have free will- as soon as they sign those enlistment papers they are property of the U.S. Government.

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And as far as I know, we have free will in this country.

I'm sorry but how dare you assume that you know what is best for these ADULTS who themselves have made the decision to join the armed forces. What do you think, the only people who are part of this joined beforehand without the realization that at some point they may be called upon to complete their duty?? Nice to give credit to their intelligence. These are not mentally retarded people, they are adults like you or I and I think it is beyond arrogan to assume that YOU understand their wants and needs better than they do, calling them victims and saying 'they didn't know what they were doing.'

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maybe you should re-read what I wrote and leave the 'how dare yous' out of it.

I said that when you are in the military you cannot just pick and choose what jobs you are going to fulfill or where you want to go. You do what you are told or else you are court martialed and possibly go to jail.

My statement wasn't political at all.

I simply said when you are in the military you don't have free will. Whether you believe in the war or not, if you are told to go to Iraq, you go. Or you go to jail.
Maybe you consider that free will, but I certainly do not.

Secondly, I never said, 'they didn't know what they were doing'.. but for you to think that there aren't men and women in the service that signed up because they didn't have any other options available to them, then maybe you are, 'beyond arrogant'... not everyone in the military marches behind Bush's banner of war.

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I have reread your post again and I still think it's totally arrogant. You don't have to march behind anyone's banner to support the decision of those who CHOSE to go into the military. Of course there are people who don't want to be there for various reasons - that's the case of any war, even the highly touted WWII. However, that doesn't mean that this is the majority of those serving and I think to say otherwise is simply conjecture.

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No where in my quote did I say 'majority of those serving'... I really think you are reading into what I write with way too much personal emotion.

I am forming my experience based on my friends, loved ones and family members IN THE MILITARY PRESENTLY... I'm not forming opinions based on third-party knowledge or what I read in the paper.

I never once in my post on this topic said ONE thing about the NY Post article, wrong war, wrong time, wrong decisions, etc.. that is what YOU said. I was responding to YOUR comment about free will which I thought to be assumptive.

All those other points are points YOU brought to the debate, not me.

Re: A letter to John Kerry -- in today's NY Post

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Posted by Sassyz75

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Posted by eogara

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Posted by Sassyz75

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Posted by eogara

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Posted by Sassyz75
As far as I know, when you are in the military you don't have free will. YOu are told where to go and you have to go or else you will be thrown in jail. if that isn't the case, please let me know.

Also- while the soliders did have free will in enlisting in the armed services, the majority of these brave men & women enlisted during peaceful times. And I dare say that the majority of them never expected to go to war. Maybe that was foolish of them... but I know a lot of my friends and family (a lot of cousins) that are in and were in the armed services did so b/c they didn't know what else to do with their lives- and they wanted to take advantage of the GI bill...

So, I don't think they really have free will- as soon as they sign those enlistment papers they are property of the U.S. Government.

---

And as far as I know, we have free will in this country.

I'm sorry but how dare you assume that you know what is best for these ADULTS who themselves have made the decision to join the armed forces. What do you think, the only people who are part of this joined beforehand without the realization that at some point they may be called upon to complete their duty?? Nice to give credit to their intelligence. These are not mentally retarded people, they are adults like you or I and I think it is beyond arrogan to assume that YOU understand their wants and needs better than they do, calling them victims and saying 'they didn't know what they were doing.'

---

maybe you should re-read what I wrote and leave the 'how dare yous' out of it.

I said that when you are in the military you cannot just pick and choose what jobs you are going to fulfill or where you want to go. You do what you are told or else you are court martialed and possibly go to jail.

My statement wasn't political at all.

I simply said when you are in the military you don't have free will. Whether you believe in the war or not, if you are told to go to Iraq, you go. Or you go to jail.
Maybe you consider that free will, but I certainly do not.

Secondly, I never said, 'they didn't know what they were doing'.. but for you to think that there aren't men and women in the service that signed up because they didn't have any other options available to them, then maybe you are, 'beyond arrogant'... not everyone in the military marches behind Bush's banner of war.

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I have reread your post again and I still think it's totally arrogant. You don't have to march behind anyone's banner to support the decision of those who CHOSE to go into the military. Of course there are people who don't want to be there for various reasons - that's the case of any war, even the highly touted WWII. However, that doesn't mean that this is the majority of those serving and I think to say otherwise is simply conjecture.

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No where in my quote did I say 'majority of those serving'... I really think you are reading into what I write with way too much personal emotion.

I am forming my experience based on my friends, loved ones and family members IN THE MILITARY PRESENTLY... I'm not forming opinions based on third-party knowledge or what I read in the paper.

I never once in my post on this topic said ONE thing about the NY Post article, wrong war, wrong time, wrong decisions, etc.. that is what YOU said. I was responding to YOUR comment about free will which I thought to be assumptive.

All those other points are points YOU brought to the debate, not me.

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I disagree but at this point, I think it's better to just let this one go.

Re: A letter to John Kerry -- in today's NY Post

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Posted by sweetadeline

Criticizing the war (including the 'reasons' for entering into it in the first place) and criticizing the total lack of careful planning and exit strategy does not mean criticizing the troops. Period.

It's more insulting to soldiers to continue to send them there without any fully articulated reason for doing so.

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Exactly. I never was convinced that this war was a great idea BUT I come from a family where many people have served in the military. And I honor those who gave their lives, but I just don't think we should have gone there in the first place. I don't know if we're better off. I don't know that the Iraqi people are as grateful to us as the media makes them out to be. I think we've left chaos over there that will take years to rectify. JMO.

Re: A letter to John Kerry -- in today's NY Post

I can't believe I'm even bothing to jump in the fray here, but...
I too love this country, consider myself patriotic and don't understand how using freedom of speech and expressing opinions that sometimes conflict with our government can be construed as anything other than truly democratic and American.

I feel badly for families worrying about their family members in the military. I have great respect for people who sign up for the armed services.

However, that letter was absolutely political. Otherwise, it would have strictly talked about his son and dtr-in-law and his true feelings without directly relating them to Kerry's campaign-trail statements. The letter was absolutely political. With all that is going on in international and even national news, it is ridiculously biased journalism (if we can loosely use the term) to put that on the front page of a paper.

Re: A letter to John Kerry -- in today's NY Post

look, politics is a very touchy and sensitive subject. everyone has their opinion. Of course Steve was going to use his leverage as a writer to add his political views into the letter. Who wouldn't. His son is going off to war and might never return. He is venting his frustration and fear... And he has every right to. Freedom of the press....One of the reasons this country is what it is..

Re: A letter to John Kerry -- in today's NY Post

the Post...figures...

Re: A letter to John Kerry -- in today's NY Post

nevermind...

Re: A letter to John Kerry -- in today's NY Post

Its pretty sad that I can't post how I really feel about this whole thing without people jumping down my throat. So I will keep my opinion to myself.

Re: A letter to John Kerry -- in today's NY Post

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Posted by OSCARtheGROOM

Its pretty sad that I can't post how I really feel about this whole thing without people jumping down my throat. So I will keep my opinion to myself.

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same here, i'm not in the mood to be crucified...so i opted for the eyeroll