Re: 1/6/03 Question of the Day: Anyone NOT want children or are not sure?

I truly enjoyed this thread, it was an eye opener and I got to see that I am not the only one out there that has these feelings and these fears.

Re: 1/6/03 Question of the Day: Anyone NOT want children or are not sure?

teri, i've run across this study a few times....i think it is projected that 4 years at a private instituion will cost around $250k per child in about 20 years (which is still pretty steep)...

i don't mean to refute what you are saying, but i dont want people to freak out that they will need close to a million $$$ per child for a college education....
just edited to say that i pray i am not wrong about this otherwise i don't see myself having any children!!! : )

the link below is a useful website with a calculate tool that might clarify this??:

http://www.theeducationplan.com/education/splash.jsp

Re: 1/6/03 Question of the Day: Anyone NOT want children or are not sure?

dkga - I think it really depends on who's giving out the info. The consultant who came into my company gave us different figures - I guess no one's sure since they're just projections anyway. Regardless of the exact figure, the avg tuition is already high IMHO, and will just keep getting higher through the years.

Re: 1/6/03 Question of the Day: Anyone NOT want children or are not sure?

Wow...see what I miss when I'm sick??? I've been battling a cold since this weekend, and what's worse is that Paul has it, too!! His first cold, and seeing his little face so miserable is heart-wrenching.

I have waded through these messages and I am surprised by a couple of things. First, many of you are talking about motherhood and parenting like there's some kind of 'magical-will-I-know-or-feel-it-time.' Truthfully, there is no magical time or feeling that will come. You are never ready to take on this HUGE responsibility. Hasn't anyone watched the Oprah motherhood series this season?? C'mon…let's get real! Having children is not a romantic choice; it’s a value-based one. If your values are focused on family and sacrificing for something you believe in, you are probably the mothering type. If your values are focused on money, travel, freedom, independence, expensive cars and clothes, mothering is probably not for you….at least not now. Neither one is right or wrong, but knowing where you characterize yourself is the key. Let’s face it, all of us like nice things and would love to travel the world, but only some can actually let go of those things to put children first.

Some women also hear their “clocks” ticking, and in some cases that might actually be true. I never experienced this, so I can’t say. But I also know that some people who think they are ready for children were in for rude awakenings b/c they were not realistic about lifestyle changes and sacrifices after the baby arrived. Even couples with two incomes cannot live the same lifestyle they had before children b/c there are other issues besides money that will come into play and require change in your life.

Parenthood is as lifelong a commitment as marriage is. Even though your children grow up to lead lives of their own, you never stop being a parent. You might not be financially responsible for them, but you still play a very important emotional role in their lives. If you think you'd be happier having marriage without the children, than do whatever is in your power as a human being to prevent yourselves from creating a new life. The world does not need any more unfit parents!

Personally, I feel very happy to be a Mother. There is no job in the world that could make me feel as worthy or important as Paul makes me feel. His smile melts my heart and his eyes show me the potential HE has in this world. I am more than willing to sacrifice a little now, to make his life wonderful. Watching him grow and learn will pay dividends for years to come.

However, my road to motherhood was not without the same fears some of you have mentioned. Although, I never feared weight gain - I only feared never being able to LOSE it!!
I am afraid everyday that I might make a wrong choice for Paul. But, my husband and I are educated people, and we will use whatever resources available to us to make decisions based on knowledge. We also have a really strong support system through our families...I think this is a very important aspect of parenting b/c it is hard to do it alone. And, never underestimate the importance of your husband wanting children as much or more than you do. Having my DH is a god-send. He will do anything for Paul or me, and he doesn’t flinch with laundry or housework, either. So, I have it easy in that respect…I don’t have to worry when I want to run errands or visit friends that something will go wrong. He’s capable of running our household while I’m away. That’s a type of security that I know not many women have. I am lucky.

There’s no question that there are crummy days…again, just like in a marriage, you accept the good with the bad. I don’t get to see friends as often as I wish. But, they’ve got their lives too, and as long as we’re in touch, that’s good enough for now. Do I miss my freedom? Sure I do. But, not enough to regret my choice to have a child. I don’t get to have pedicures or fancy dinners with my husband as often, or buy new clothes on impulse. I have to count every penny and consider, what does Paul need? But, that’s what makes me a good Mom.


As far as paying for college - do you think our parents knew how much it would cost to send us to college? No, but they did their best to plan for what they could. Somehow, even if we were left with student loans to pay, we got an education. It all works out somehow.

Claud2001, I hope I'm wrong

about the following statement you made:

'Having children is not a romantic choice; it’s a value-based one. If your values are focused on family and sacrificing for something you believe in, you are probably the mothering type. If your values are focused on money, travel, freedom, independence, expensive cars and clothes, mothering is probably not for you….at least not now.'

We have been married almost 18 months and we are not yet ready for children. However, if you took one look at our weekend schedule you would see our values are clearly centered around family. My DH's grandparents are in very ill health; his GF just came home from a nursing home. My DH's help was needed often in the beginning because he was the only one with the strength to lift his grandfather up and out of the wheelchair, etc., and he still visits frequently because my MIL and her brother do not bother with their parents. My DH is also somewhat of a parent to his two younger brothers who do not have much parental influence in their lives. He drives them places, plays ball with them, they often sleep over. On top of that, my mother lives alone and we do our best to visit her as often as we can.

Additionally, we are both working two jobs to save money to keep the mortgage low as possible so that when we are ready, I don't have to work full time. We do not work like dogs for luxuries. I wonder how many others like me there are.

Working and otherwise being very busy and being a person with family based values are not always mutually exclusive. Everyone's situations are different.

Re: Claud2001, I hope I'm wrong

I also think that everyone has a different definition of 'ready' for children. Some people believe just wanting a child is being 'ready' where as I think you owe a child not only a open embrance but a secure pocketbook and a well rounded parent.

In my opinion, parents have no right to bring in a child they can not afford to support purely because they are mechanically able. Many people will disagree with me as its a cruel notion but however cruel it may seem the landlord, supermarket and a host of other necessities in a childs life dont take 'love' credits. You need cash. You also need to feel financially secure to be a stable parent because relying on others financially, jumping jobs, moving around and having just enough to met ends (if that) is not a healthy place for a child to grow.

Putting that aside, there are many young mothers who have never had a chance to experience life before having children. I think that when 2 adults who have had their chance to live independently and have a chance to complete some of their independent goals (career, travel, education, etc..) then they are better able to be a parent in many ways.

I guess my point is - for me its more about being ready to provide what a child is owed rather than being ready to give up certain things Im used to. To imply that those who dont want children do not put family first is too simplistic - its not about what I want, its about what a child needs.

Re: Claud2001, I hope I'm wrong

See, when I read Claud's response I was trying to come up with something to say to express how I felt. I value family and family values, but that does not mean I want to bring children in to the world and let the pieces fall in to place.

We spend a lot of time with our families. My mother always taught me that you always wanted better for the generation that came after you. I live by that principle. I was an unplanned child, not to say I had it bad, as a matter of fact I had it better than my mother. I want my child to have it better than I did.

I always said I do not want to have an unplanned preganancy, b/c I figure I might regret it and I do not want a child coming in to the world like that.

Stef and the young lady before Stef, summed up some of my thoughts perfectly.

Re: Claud2001, I hope I'm wrong

Stef, I don't think that my implication is too simplistic at all. Go back and read some of the responses - many people replied that they are too selfish right now to consider children a possibility in their lives. There is nothing wrong with that, as I stated in my post. At least they know where they stand in terms of priority. Traveling the world might make you a more well-rounded person, but it's not going to get you through the first 6 weeks of a child's life, much less the first 10 years! A child will not understand, or even appreciate your worldly experiences for some time to come. (That's not to dimish their value when the time comes, but just that it's a LONG road to get there.)

And, if you think all you need to provide for a child is a fat bank account, than that is simplistic, too. Like Michele said, there is never enough money. You are right that supermarkets and doctors and other places do not take 'love credit.' But, the child needs a much greater committment of your time, energy, patience, understanding, tolerance, etc. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you need to be completely selfless to be a parent, and that is not what I read in many of the posts. People are admittedly selfish and that's okay....as long as you know that it's not the right choice to have a child while that is your MO.

I also agree with Jenn P that family values and working are not mutually exclusive. When I said family values, I meant starting a family of your own - NOT that you don't value your extended family or help them when they need you. I don't think everyone works just for luxuries...I live in NY, too and I know how expensive life is here. I think everyone works to get by with the rent, bills, food, whatever, and have something extra to LIVE a little. But, some people choose to put that 'extra' toward a child and their family, while others choose to put it toward traveling, clothing, cars, etc. There's no right or wrong...it's all what you choose.

Re: Claud2001, I hope I'm wrong

I actually believe that it takes a tremendous amount of courage for a couple to not want children and make a decison not to have them. There is a lot of social pressure on couples to have children, regardless of the circumstances. People always asking 'When are you having a baby' etc...when a women answers 'We have decided not to have children' people look at her as if she just killed someone on the street. To me, that is family values- valueing what it means to be a family and a parent and making a chose about it. You and your husband are still a family and honoring your relationship is part of family values as well.

Re: Claud2001, I hope I'm wrong

The bottom line is 'Ready' means different things for different people, and IF and WHEN you're ready is no one else's business but yours and your husbands. No one else can determine if you are ready or not, how much money you will need, or if you will be a 'good' parent.

Also, practically speaking 'accidents' do happen, even if you don't want children, so children cannot be ruled out altogether.

Re: Claud2001, I hope I'm wrong

Claud - Just for the record, I agree with a lot of what you have said. I just dont think all good mothers are selfless and all childless women are selfish.

The reason why I think the view is too simplistic is because I dont think it really matters what a parent thinks they are sacrificing to be a good parent. Im saying that being a good parent does require sacrifice but you could sacrifice everything from now until the child is 50 and you could still be a terrible parent. There are some hard and fast things that someone needs to have to be a good parent (in my opinion of course) and those dont change because we live in NY or because we think we are ready or because we love a child more than anything. I dont think it makes someone selfish to make 100% sure they have those things before indulging their desire to have a child. (And your right, some people said they were too selfish but that doesnt mean everyone choose not to have children for those reasons).

As Nina said, its all a matter of opinion and we have to make our own choices.

Re: Claud2001, I hope I'm wrong

When DH and I decided to start a family, I never put money into the equasion. At least not long term.. ie. College or his wedding. I grew up poor for the first years of my life and spent the next two decades living with a father who though if he could not buy me all the fancy things that one desired that he was not a good father. What I would have given to hear him say I love you or how proud of me he was. He says them now that he is older and wiser and has a grandson and realizes that money is not everything. He is also financeally (sp?) comfortable for the first time in his life. So he can think of other things, but I digress.....

So my needs to be 'READY' for a child were soley based on my ability to provide for his emotional well-being overall as opposed to the prospect he may get married or he may go to college. And each of us has different requirements that need to be fufilled before we take that next step. And it's true that you're never 'READY'. How you be ready for the unknown??? And til it happens you just dont know!!!

I put a roof over his head, food in his belly and clean clothes on his back, as well as ensuring he is healthy. These are basic life needs. We made sure that we could provide these for the two of us way before children became topic of discussion.

However, I do not owe my son a college education, a car a wedding or anything above and beyond.
I owe my son a lesson about values and morals and self reliance. Because I birthed him does not mean I gotta pay for him to go to school at 250k. If I raise him right he will find the strength and determination to get it done.
I think that if my son grows up thinking that I or the world owed him. I did not do my job correct. IMO.
edited - Cira thanks for the sweet compliment!!

Re: Claud2001, I hope I'm wrong

Why do I feel bad/guilty for posting in a thread about not wanting/not sure yet about children...and saying that I want to wait, b/c now I am focussed on me and DH???

Because I want to have a little fun in life will not make me a bad parent if I got PG tonight...

I was just talking to a coworker who is the mother of 2 lovely well adjusted teenagers - and she was telling me that you can't focus only on your children...you can't live your life through them...so I am living it now...

Re: Claud2001, I hope I'm wrong

Yabbobay,

You have nothing to feel guilty about. I dont feel that I can judge any woman on this board for any decision they make. And if my participation in this thread is contributing to making you or anyone else feel 'bad' Than I am done posting on THIS subject. For that is not my intention. Thanks for listening to my opinions.

Re: Claud2001, I hope I'm wrong

Briar rose I liked what you said in your post, that is so true, but so many of us, would love to provide for our children what our parents or their parents could not provide for them.

I know for a fact that my mom having me so young and unplanned, she got short changed. I know her pride and joy of having me was not immediate. So when I hear people say what you give up, the joy you get from a child outweighs all that. I will disagree, there a lot of parents out there living in the if I didn't have you land. I would never want to have children, just b/c it is expected of me, or before I feel ready. I have certain things that I want to do in life, it might sound selfish but I thank God for giving me choices.

Re: Claud2001, I hope I'm wrong

Reena (briarrose)

I did not mean that at all...

I just meant, yes I am selfish...but that does not mean that I will always be and I will make a poor mother...when I the time is right for me...

Re: Claud2001, I hope I'm wrong

Yaboobay, it's interesting that you said you felt guilty because I left work yesterday having LOTS of anxiety over being pregnant and whether DH and I will be able to handle being parents. All I've been thinking about for the past 2 days is finances and responsibilties, and maybe I didn't do enough of what I want to do in life...blah, blah, blah.
I don't know if it's hormones or something else, but I think reading these posts all day had some influence on my feelings too.

I keep reading the word 'selfish' in these posts and I just want to stress that just because a person does not want to have children (or is not sure when) this does NOT make them selfish at all. Being an independent person without any obligations to anyone (besides your DH and loved ones to some degree) and the ability to do what you want when you want does not mean you're selfish. That is what life is about when we're young and independent-to grow and take care of ourselves, and use the freedom to the best of our advantage.

Someone is selfish AFTER they have children and do not put their child's needs first. I think we can all think of examples of this.

Re: Claud2001, I hope I'm wrong

briarrose, your post is very sweet and idealistic, but IMHO it does not carry in the real world...my parents did not pay for my college education, they never bought me a car, nor did they pay for my wedding...they did give me morals and values (more than i could stomach!!!)but, believe me there are a lot of 'in-between' things that they gave me and, unfortunately, these things cost $$$....i wish raising a child was as simple as you say, but life has become so complicated that you can't just say 'i'll give my kids morals and thats all they need'....IMO a child should not expect or depend on their parent to pay for college or for a wedding but i, as a parent, would like to feel that i can help my child in these situations should the time come...i would rather help pay for my child's education, if i had to, then have them not go to college at all....i think that's is a big reason why couples think twice before having children...they'd like to give their kids a little more than what they had...

Re: Claud2001, I hope I'm wrong

Ok it's late & I just read the last 24 hours of this thread........I'm the poster child for young motherhood. My son was born when I was 17, yes I had a very supportive family. My Mom told me she would help me as long I finished school. So I finished HS, got a job & went to community college.
It has been a very long road.........I have never gotten 1 dime from my son's 'father' nor does he have any parental rights.
When you're a pregnant kid, you don't experience the joy of pregnancy-it's shameful. You don't show people your sonagram pictures, you don't even talk about the joy you're feeling. You don't have your husband to love you & coach you. For the first 12 years of Brian's life people would say 'oh is that your brother?' I was always the youngest PTA member, class mother & often had a hard time 'getting in' w/ the Moms.
Because of my choices & my age I never even thought of how I would pay for my son's education.
Now I know how I'll help him, I give him what I've saved & teach him his first real lesson about borrowing money.
Do I suggest my choice as a reasonable standard for family planning? No way..........but I do believe that all of us have it in us to do what we have to do for the sake of our child. I believe that you can plan for years & think that you've got it all figured out, but sometimes that's not enough.
I don't think anyone should feel bad for me or my son, we're living a great life. There have been times that I had an old car and time I bought storebrand cereal instead of Kellogg's. I've always worked, Brian went daycare when he was young. I have never missed a field trip or a game & I think my son understands what it takes to be a parent. We've traveled together, we've learned life lessons together, we've had times of good fortune with many more to come, but most of all we've lived.
I posted earlier in the thread that I will not be having any other children & that is probably true.
I promised myself when my son was born that I'd never get pregnant again until I had everything in my life in order, now I'm in order & I think that window of time has passed.
I think every couple should do what feels right, you should not feel obligated to explain your choice to anyone.
edited for spelling, it's late I may have missed some, good nite

BriarRose and Claud! :)

IMHO, I agree with BriarRose and Claud. My parents had no money when I was growing up. They struggled. I got through college on a student loan and have a great job now. I think I probably love my parents more than if they would have been rich and give in to my every whim! :) What would I have appreciated??? Instead, they tought me the value of a dollar, how to work for what one wants and most of all LOVE! How family dinner time was more special then spending $100 on a restaurant meal. I hope I am 1/10th the parent my parents were and I look forward to starting my own family. I know it will be a struggle esp. in NY, but I would rather sacrafice clothes and travel and stay home with my kids and experience it ALL! :) And as far as college education goes, if I raise my children right, they will make it on their own somehow, just like we all did, right! :) Was most of our parents thinking about college for us in the 70's?? And don't get me wrong I am not saying my DH or I are not going to put money aside for them, and start a college fund (529), we already investigaed this, but in 20 years, if we don't have the 250K!, I am not going to sweat it. We did it and I believe they can do it too! Love and guidance, I believe those are the keys! Remember girls, this is just MHO. I am not saying that if mothers work their kids will be failures or anything like that. It comes down to its a personal opinion/preference.