Re: Contraversial topic so be prepared...

Just to go off a little on this subject, but relative, as far as hypocrites go, I also find it funny, when some couples feel that they shouldn't live together before marriage because they are 'old fashioned', yet they still have pre-marital sex...

Re: Contraversial topic so be prepared...

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Posted by bxgell2

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Posted by dm24angel

What do you vegitarians think about charity orginazations like the MDA?

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Excuse my ignorance (I'm studying for the bar, so what may be obvious to everyone else, will completely elude me at this point)... but what is the MDA?

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The Muscular dystropy Association...
There are a lot of orginizations ( charity's) like them, and others that test on animals...I was wondering what the vegitarians thought of them, if everyone was against them...
a lot of animal right orginazations picket them at the walk- a - thon and such

Re: Contraversial topic so be prepared...

QUESTION FOR THE VEGANS:

why no milk or cheese...cows and goats and human use this to nurish their own...(at least the milk). So what is the big deal that we drink it to nourish humans?

And what about the important vitamins gotten from the food products you are not eating which you are lacking? DO you take extra vitamin pills?

Re: Contraversial topic so be prepared...

i'm a vegetarian who wears leather shoes...sue me. okay, i will say that there is a HUGE difference in leather and plastic shoes and as a person who is on my feet all day, i need my feet to feel as best as possible. anyway, call me a hypocrite, whatever, i know who i am. i have never tried to impose vegetarianism on anyone else, unlike people who try to tell me i'm wrong in what i'm doing or make bets with me. i do it b/c i love animals and feel that animal protein is not as healthy as believed. i've given up trying to win an argument...just let me be a veggie who wears leather shoes and call it a day.

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I wrote this insanely long post and then it failed to ppst (this has been happening a LOT lately..grrr_ I talked about how I felt about all of this...I'm going to give you the sparknotes version.

1) I agree with cocoa. My friend wrote a song called 'leather wearing vegetarian' which cracked me up. It was something like 'Call me a hypocrote but I don't care what you say or do. I said I don't eat meat and I don't eat my shoe.'

2) I get really annoyed when people ask me why I'm a vegetarian. A lot of times people are pretty hostile about it. It's very weird. There's no reason they should be. It doesn't hurt anyone. I dont know why it bothers people so much.

3) I feel like what I eat is my personal choice, and as long as I don't try to push it on others as a lifestyle (one meal does not constitute a lifestyle), then I don't feel that my beliefs should be scrutinized. If I choose not to serve meat, that's my prerogative, completely. Some people won't allow smoking in their homes because they're asthmatic, or they won't serve liquor for various reasons. they're not pushing anything on anyone at all, they're just living their own lifestyle and when you're in someone's home or at a party they throw, you're in their lifestyle for those few hours. It doesn't mean anyone's pushing anything on you... I feel that as long as I don't try to push anything on anyone, they have no right to call me a hypocrite.

4) I don't eat animals. I eat dairy, eggs and fish occasionally. I'm not claiming to be anything I'm not. I can specify everytime I say I'm a vegatarian I'm a 'lacto ovo peco vegetarian' but that's too many words and 'vegetarian' is just easier to say. I have one pair of shoes that may or may not be leather, I'm not sure. My car seats, yes, are elather. Call me a hypocrite, but I did my homework and found out that processing the leather causes a lot more dmage to the environment than killing cows. Do I think it's gross, yes.

5) Morality. You can define that word in many different ways. maybe we're not using it in the same way, which is ok. I don't know of a better word. I consider it moral because it's something I feel is right for my in my heart. On a spiritual level, I don't think people were meant to eat animals. Do I think other people who eat meat are being 'immoral'? No way. I just think it's a total personal choice. For me, I don't feel like eating meat. At this point I mainly think it's gross and I don't feel like killing animals.

I get a lot of ciriticism for eating fish milk and eggs. If it were feasable at this point in my life to be vegan, I would be. You cna believe i the ten commandments wholeheartedly and then only follow nine of them. No one's perfect. Are you a hypocrite for only following 9? Only if you tell everyone else they must follow all ten.

6) On dairy: I think milk IS gross. I mean, think about it. it's meant to nourish young cows, it's not really formulalted for humans, but also, would you drink another woman's breast milk? Of course not. Cow milk is the same thing. We're just conditioned not to think about it that way. It's funny, a lot of people are grossed out by breast milk, but that's a whole lot more natural to be drinking than milk from a cow. Do I care if other people drink milk or not? Nope.

About proseletizing. i wish more peopel were vegetarians, but I never try to convert anyone. I don't even think of it. I think if I said 'you can;t eat meat, it's so wrong' you could say, wait...your car seats are leather..., but I don't say that to anyone. I don't claim to be perfect. I don't claim to be anything I'm not, so I don't really feel like I deserve, in general, to be called a hypocrite.

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Well personally i have to say that to those Vegans/vegetarians who feel it is morally wrong to eat a animal (hey fish are in this sense of the word are animals too!) and if you wear and or use leather products...well then i think that is pretty cheesy and hypcritical. And the fact that you say that you are morally against eating another thing but are certainly ok about wearing its skin or fur to make life easier for you well...then you lose ALL credibility in my eyes.

Re: Contraversial topic so be prepared...

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Posted by dm24angel

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Posted by bxgell2

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Posted by dm24angel

What do you vegitarians think about charity orginazations like the MDA?

---

Excuse my ignorance (I'm studying for the bar, so what may be obvious to everyone else, will completely elude me at this point)... but what is the MDA?

---

The Muscular dystropy Association...
There are a lot of orginizations ( charity's) like them, and others that test on animals...I was wondering what the vegitarians thought of them, if everyone was against them...
a lot of animal right orginazations picket them at the walk- a - thon and such

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I believe that there is a big difference between testing on animals to create a shampoo or a shaving cream and testing to create a medication or treatment that will help heal a person with a serious illness.

I don't condone the picketing of animal rights activists, and I don't agree with a lot of the ridiculous things that organizations such as PETA do. I don't condone any extremists because life is not black and white.

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I have so many things to say and so little time or space to say it in. That is right, it is not all black and white.
As a vegan I try my best, but I was not always vegan, I was vegitartian for a while first, and before that, guess what! I ate meat. I said before that you need the drive. While I don't condon using animal products, especially if you are against eating animals for any moral, or something like moral reasons, I also say that those people are trying.
My ex used to say this 'I am minimizing suffering.' Some people might not be able to do it all. There might be health or money issues. The situation they are in may not be conducive. But they are doing more than others are. I think you are only a hipocrite if you say that someone can't do something you are doing.
As for the milk thing, animal only feed thier young milk. Not the adults. Plus we have to do all sorts of things to cows milk to be able to drink it ourselves. If you fed a cat cow's milk it would get sick.
Vitamins: Acually many people that eat meat and drink milk take alot more vitamines than I do. I don't just eat veggies. Lucky for me in this day and age we have tasty wheat gluten and soy and we cerials with vitamines that don't contain dairy.
I am not an activist. I don't believe in yelling at people to teach them. If someone asks though, I tell them. And I don't cook/serve meat unless there is no other way to feed them.
And another thing health wise. Many times they stick animals with steriods and they feed them badly to save money and to bulk them up, leaving them even less healthy to consume. Think mad cow!
I try not to take medication, but testing for our survival is much better than testing for lipstick color #8. There are plenty of low cost makeup iteams and hygine products out there that are not tested on animals, or the company no longer continues to test on them.
Have any questions about these companies, FM me.

Re: Contraversial topic so be prepared...

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Posted by oct.2004bride

QUESTION FOR THE VEGANS:

why no milk or cheese...cows and goats and human use this to nurish their own...(at least the milk). So what is the big deal that we drink it to nourish humans?

And what about the important vitamins gotten from the food products you are not eating which you are lacking? DO you take extra vitamin pills?

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I'm not a vegan but my Fi is so I will speak on behalf of him on this one.

We don't drink human breastmilk as adults, milk is meant for human babies, and cows milk is meant for calves, not humans.

Cows are bred not only to be used as meat, but to be harvested for their milk. The conditions under which they are forced to live are cruel. Cows make milk to feed their calves-not us, so to keep the milk coming they have to keep the cows pregnant and pumped full of hormones.

“Dairy cows” give birth to up to six calves during their unnaturally shortened lives (a cow’s normal life span is 20 to 25 years, but a commercially raised cow is usually slaughtered by her fifth birthday), and they are usually given no more than one or two months of rest between pregnancies. Plus, milking machines are a constant source of udder injury.

Female calves born on dairy farms are either added to the herd or are killed for the rennet in their stomachs, which is used to make cheese.

Re: Contraversial topic so be prepared...

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Posted by oct.2004bride

Well personally i have to say that to those Vegans/vegetarians who feel it is morally wrong to eat a animal (hey fish are in this sense of the word are animals too!) and if you wear and or use leather products...well then i think that is pretty cheesy and hypcritical. And the fact that you say that you are morally against eating another thing but are certainly ok about wearing its skin or fur to make life easier for you well...then you lose ALL credibility in my eyes.

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Understandable. but i still know who i am as a person and i think i am a decent person, for the most part. if i own four pairs of leather shoes and i'm a vegetarian and that makes me a hypocrite, then fine, i'll wear that badge. however, i still know who i am and i am proud of who i am. and anyone who knows me respects my views and likewise. i've come from a different path in life, as we all have, and i have made my decisions on my own with my past guiding me, like everyone else. i'd like to think that someone would get to know my character before having me fall from grace first. i'm a good person, and i will fight for what i believe in. i am good to others, i try to love purely and honestly, i try to give people the benefit of the doubt, i try to see only the good in people, no matter how mean or angry they are to me and my only wish is that everyone knows that kind of wonderful happiness that i have known in my life...that is who i am, and so if being a leather shoe wearing vegetarian makes me a faulty person, well, i've never declared i was perfect.

Re: Contraversial topic so be prepared...

I am vegan.

I eat no animal products, including dairy or eggs. I wear no clothing made from animals, include silk, bc it is made from silk worms. (Finding a wedding dress was difficult due to this!) I use no products tested on animals. I use no products with animal byproducts in them. So, no, I am not hypocritical .... and yes, I agree ... those who do not do all of these things are somewhat hypocritical, but at least they are doing something to protect animals ... and something is a LOT better than nothing.

If everyone put in a little bit of effort, and cut back on meat a little bit, many more animals would be saved, people would be healthier, and our environment would be a lot cleaner. BTW, it also annoys me when people call themselves environmentalists and eat animals, bc IMO they go hand in hand. But, if it means doing a little or nothing, again, I am of the opinion that everyone should do something bc even the smallest group of commited citizens can make a difference.

Hugs to all of you non-flesh eaters out there!

Re: Contraversial topic so be prepared...

And, to take this one step further, yes, I am against animal testing even if it is for the prevention of diseases because animal research will not get us anywhere. Do your research.

Re: Contraversial topic so be prepared...

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Posted by oct.2004bride

Well personally i have to say that to those Vegans/vegetarians who feel it is morally wrong to eat a animal (hey fish are in this sense of the word are animals too!) and if you wear and or use leather products...well then i think that is pretty cheesy and hypcritical. And the fact that you say that you are morally against eating another thing but are certainly ok about wearing its skin or fur to make life easier for you well...then you lose ALL credibility in my eyes.

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Judging by this logic, pretty much every single person in the world is some kind of hypocrite. Every person who claims to be a 'good Christian' and occasionally says 'Jesus Christ!' when someone cuts her off on the expressway is taking the lord's name in vain, and is therefore a hypocrite. Every doctor who has a few glasses of wine with dinner is a hypocrite. Every dentist who decides to skip flossing once in a while is a hypocrite -- dentists are constantly telling US to floss every day, so they should have to floss every day, right?

I can't disagree: everyone I know could be considered a hypocrite in one way or another. I could certainly be considered a hypocrite.

My point is this: humans are not perfect. No one has perfect, unassailable credibility. So maybe... just maybe... there's a certain amount of pointlessness to judging other people as hypocrites.

Is judging other people as hypocrites an important and useful thing to do? If so, why? I'm not asking this question to be obnoxious. This is a serious question. For example, I can envision certain circumstances where looking for serious instances of hypocrisy might be important -- when deciding which candidate one would prefer to support with a vote, for instance. Then again, every candidate is a hypocrite in one way or another, so...

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One more thing re: cheese and milk:

Look up rennet in the dictionary. Now lick your lips as you taste the mozerrella cheese on your pizza. Yes, you are ingesting the lining of a cow's stomach.

Not grossed out?

If you could see the amount of pus you drink while drinking cows from dairy farms, you'd become vegan instantly.

And chickens that are bred for egg laying are put in cages that are so overstuffed that commercial farms 'de-beak' them from preventing canibalism. Yes, they eat one another.

When you are enjoying your next meal, think about everything the animals have eaten, and you too, are eating the same.

Re: Contraversial topic so be prepared...

And no, if vegans eat properly, they can get all the vitamins they need from food, and don't need supplements. Just the same way non-vegans get their nourishment. If non-vegans do not eat properly, they too need a supplement.

Re: Contraversial topic so be prepared...

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Posted by Darcy

I have so many things to say and so little time or space to say it in. That is right, it is not all black and white.
As a vegan I try my best, but I was not always vegan, I was vegitartian for a while first, and before that, guess what! I ate meat. I said before that you need the drive. While I don't condon using animal products, especially if you are against eating animals for any moral, or something like moral reasons, I also say that those people are trying.
My ex used to say this 'I am minimizing suffering.' Some people might not be able to do it all. There might be health or money issues. The situation they are in may not be conducive. But they are doing more than others are. I think you are only a hipocrite if you say that someone can't do something you are doing.
As for the milk thing, animal only feed thier young milk. Not the adults. Plus we have to do all sorts of things to cows milk to be able to drink it ourselves. If you fed a cat cow's milk it would get sick.
Vitamins: Acually many people that eat meat and drink milk take alot more vitamines than I do. I don't just eat veggies. Lucky for me in this day and age we have tasty wheat gluten and soy and we cerials with vitamines that don't contain dairy.
I am not an activist. I don't believe in yelling at people to teach them. If someone asks though, I tell them. And I don't cook/serve meat unless there is no other way to feed them.
And another thing health wise. Many times they stick animals with steriods and they feed them badly to save money and to bulk them up, leaving them even less healthy to consume. Think mad cow!
I try not to take medication, but testing for our survival is much better than testing for lipstick color #8. There are plenty of low cost makeup iteams and hygine products out there that are not tested on animals, or the company no longer continues to test on them.
Have any questions about these companies, FM me.

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I totally agree with you. I am vegetarian but not a vegan, and I'm not perfect [and who is?] but at least I am doing something.

We live in an industrialized country which does not need to rely on meat and milk to nourish ourselves. In fact, eating these things causes more suffering because we are not living off the land like a farmer would. These things are being mass produced to meet an unnatural demand due to our large population.

I don't think someone is a hypocrite if they eat fish but not beef, or if they wear leather but are a vegetarian. As long as they aren't preaching about not harming animals while wearing a fur coat! That is hypocritical. Not everyone can be totally vegan, and any small step towards helping the environment can only be a good thing, and it shouldn't be knocked down.

Re: Contraversial topic so be prepared...

Re: vegetarians being healthier than those who eat meat...

I do not believe that this has been proven. Vegetarians do not live longer than those who have good eating habits and eat meat.

I am in the belief that animals were put on this planet to be used as food and as clothing. Jesus ate meat and wore sheepskin. Hey, if it's god enough for God, who the hell am I to say that is isn't good enough for me. LOL!

I find that that world is full of hypocrits (in all parts of life) and I have a big problem with those people. I have seen people who are vegetarians for health reasons that smoke or drink obsessively (actually drinking one glass of wine with a meal has been proven to be good for you-it opens the digestive tract and allows for better food digestion). But like someone else said, there are people who claim to be Christians and still they are having sex before marraige, or they steal or do other things that are against the Christian faith.

Re: Contraversial topic so be prepared...

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Posted by oct.2004bride

QUESTION FOR THE VEGANS:

why no milk or cheese...cows and goats and human use this to nurish their own...(at least the milk). So what is the big deal that we drink it to nourish humans?

And what about the important vitamins gotten from the food products you are not eating which you are lacking? DO you take extra vitamin pills?

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1 - no milk or cheese? Because cows who are bred for milking are treated just as inhumanely as cows bred for meat... not only that, think about it... we are the ONLY creatures on this planet that (a) as adults, continue to drink milk, which, in the natural world, is unheard of, and (b) to drink ANOTHER species' milk! It's just plain weird. You don't see adult cows drinking human milk, do you?

2 - As for your second comment, it's a little on the ignorant side. Ever since FH and I gave up meat and milk products, we have been in much better shape than we ever have... we both haven't gotten sick... even once. Our diets are probably stock full of vitamins and proteins more so than most non-vegetarians out there... we eat mounds of soy and tofu, vegetables, whole grain breads, and yes, eggs (cage-free eggs, that is...)... living a vegetarian lifestyle can be just as, if not more, healthy than a non-vegetarian lifestyle...

And, just to add as a caveat, I used to be an archaeology major... and one of the things we studied/learned, is that yes, eating meat triggered the evolution of human beings... BUT, humans are continuing to evolve, and it appears that evolution is heading back towards non-meat eating... our teeth have changed in the last 200 years to reflect a more vegetarian lifestyle... meat is no longer necessary in this day and age... something to think about!

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Posted by fashionhag

Re: vegetarians being healthier than those who eat meat...

I do not believe that this has been proven. Vegetarians do not live longer than those who have good eating habits and eat meat.

I am in the belief that animals were put on this planet to be used as food and as clothing. Jesus ate meat and wore sheepskin. Hey, if it's god enough for God, who the hell am I to say that is isn't good enough for me. LOL!

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hey fashionhag: visit http://www.jesusveg.com/

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Posted by matron

And, to take this one step further, yes, I am against animal testing even if it is for the prevention of diseases because animal research will not get us anywhere. Do your research.

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Do you have more info on this you could FM me? I'd just like to learn more because my life has been touched by someone with a chronic illness who is being helped by medication that was tested on animals. I like to know both sides of the story. Thanks!