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Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?
meliss1019 Posted: Mar 24, 2006 06:10 PM+
meliss1019 MEMBER SINCE: 2/06 TOTAL POSTS : 307 WEDDING DATE: Sep 07, 2007
Posted: Mar 24, 2006 06:10 PM bride-minus.png

Re: Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?

Any info. on average Nov.-March pricing for the Hyatt in hauppauge?

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camposal Posted: Mar 24, 2006 09:16 PM+
camposal MEMBER SINCE: 1/06 TOTAL POSTS : 521 WEDDING DATE: Dec 08, 2007
Posted: Mar 24, 2006 09:16 PM bride-minus.png

Re: Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?

Hey Gals,
I visited flowerfield last weekend and absolutely fell in love with it. Its not cheap but prices include everything but the kitchen sink!

For off peak Nov/Dec 2007:
Sat/Sun afteroon: $100
Sat evening: $140

I'm planning on booking in December since they include a lot of great decorations for the holidays.
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camerakrazie Posted: Mar 24, 2006 10:41 PM+
camerakrazie MEMBER SINCE: 3/06 TOTAL POSTS : 4332 WEDDING DATE: Jun 22, 2007
Posted: Mar 24, 2006 10:41 PM bride-minus.png

Re: Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?


Posted by camposal

Hey Gals,
I visited flowerfield last weekend and absolutely fell in love with it. Its not cheap but prices include everything but the kitchen sink!

For off peak Nov/Dec 2007:
Sat/Sun afteroon: $100
Sat evening: $140

I'm planning on booking in December since they include a lot of great decorations for the holidays.




congrats..i saw flowerfields too and it was amazing!!!
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meliss1019 Posted: Apr 05, 2006 12:21 PM+
meliss1019 MEMBER SINCE: 2/06 TOTAL POSTS : 307 WEDDING DATE: Sep 07, 2007
Posted: Apr 05, 2006 12:21 PM bride-minus.png

Re: Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?

guess i'll keep it going..recent quotes-
harbor club- huntington 90 p/p for the fall
meadow club- 60 p/p fall-winter
giorgios- 65-95 fall -winter
stuart thomas 60 p/p fri. in fall
riviera 75 p/p late fall
timber pt. 65 pp fall 59 pp winter

all quotes were for a friday night.

edited to add more:

west lake inn- 69p/p fri.nite 75 sat.nite same price all year.
med.manor- 60 p/.p nov.
larkfield manor- 70 p/p fri,. night fall 07
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SeptBride70 Posted: Apr 05, 2006 01:52 PM+
SeptBride70 MEMBER SINCE: 1/06 TOTAL POSTS : 8582 WEDDING DATE: Sep 09, 2007
Posted: Apr 05, 2006 01:52 PM bride-minus.png

Re: Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?


Posted by JennyAl
Areca:
-Plainview, NY
-DON’T BOOK THIS PLACE!!!!!!
-I fell in love with this place, visited them 3x….2x to see the place w/ and w/o the wedding setup and the 3rd time to show my parents…so I called them so that we can sign the contract….I left Mike the BM NUMEROUS MSGS to please call me, I was practically begging him to take my $$$….but he NEVER ONCE returned any of my phone calls! HOW RUDE!!!!!!! I’m sooo mad at this place!



yep, same thing happened to me. i loved that place too-- i worked for hamlet willow creek for almost two years so i got to know some people at the other hamlet locations and looked at the commack one and windwatch... i heard great things about areca and called and called and CALLED-- finally, b/c i worked for the hamlet i figured let me just go down there-- so i did and they let me in the gates b/c i dropped some names of managers i knew worked there from my HWC experience...
i FORCED the BM to show me around and he did but before he did he told me i couldn't get married there... and not just me-- NO one can get married there!! i was in shock-- he explained that the homeowners b/c they think who they are-- are in the process of suing the plainview location and the hamlet for FULL ownership rights, meaning-- they want the 'clubhouse' which doubles as the reception hall ALL to themselves-- no weddings, no parties--only if you LIVE there you can go there. so they said that they had put a complete 'freeze' on all weddings taking place and didn't even know if the ones that were already booked there would take place!!!
but let me tell you-- the place is beautiful, unique, etc etc-- i'm happy with what we chose and in the end it worked out but it was a pretty place- it's a shame though... i think the people that live there will get their way and that will be it
just wanted to fill you in so you weren't wondering what happened there-- but the BM should have called you and ME before I had to go there in person and explained the situation so you didn't keep calling and calling...
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SeptBride70 Posted: Apr 05, 2006 02:06 PM+
SeptBride70 MEMBER SINCE: 1/06 TOTAL POSTS : 8582 WEDDING DATE: Sep 09, 2007
Posted: Apr 05, 2006 02:06 PM bride-minus.png

Re: Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?


Posted by camerakrazie


Posted by camposal

Hey Gals,
I visited flowerfield last weekend and absolutely fell in love with it. Its not cheap but prices include everything but the kitchen sink!

For off peak Nov/Dec 2007:
Sat/Sun afteroon: $100
Sat evening: $140

I'm planning on booking in December since they include a lot of great decorations for the holidays.




congrats..i saw flowerfields too and it was amazing!!!



yeah i had looked and looked at so many places but wasn't 'in love' until i saw FF... it's beautiful and it was $$ but you are right--they do include EVERYTHING that most places do charge extra for and i know i would have wanted those things so if you add them in i guess they really aren't that 'out there'... to share some of my experiences:

carlyle on the green: 150 for sun evening in september of 07, 150 guarantee
oheka: it was somewhere around 245 plus 10g site fee for sun evening- i dont remember exactly what it was b/c i needed oxygen once they told me the price-- FH almost had to wheel me to the car! LOL
lombardi's on the sound: sun evening $99 a person-sun even in sept, one wedding at a time at this location-- i think villa's has 2.
garden city hotel i saw was already posted on here on this page and i got the same price.
then Flowerfield which is the one i went with was 145 a person for a sun evening but i was able to get them to go to 135 if i guaranteed 175 which will be EASILY done!! i also wrestled with them to include something 'extra' so i got my chocolate fountain with all the trimmings for no charge!! YAY!!! FH was so happy

HTH ladies!!!!
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JennyAl Posted: Apr 05, 2006 02:19 PM+
JennyAl MEMBER SINCE: 3/05 TOTAL POSTS : 2196 WEDDING DATE: May 06, 2007
Posted: Apr 05, 2006 02:19 PM bride-minus.png

Re: Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?


Posted by STBMrsDaniRella


Posted by JennyAl
Areca:
-Plainview, NY
-DON’T BOOK THIS PLACE!!!!!!
-I fell in love with this place, visited them 3x….2x to see the place w/ and w/o the wedding setup and the 3rd time to show my parents…so I called them so that we can sign the contract….I left Mike the BM NUMEROUS MSGS to please call me, I was practically begging him to take my $$$….but he NEVER ONCE returned any of my phone calls! HOW RUDE!!!!!!! I’m sooo mad at this place!



yep, same thing happened to me. i loved that place too-- i worked for hamlet willow creek for almost two years so i got to know some people at the other hamlet locations and looked at the commack one and windwatch... i heard great things about areca and called and called and CALLED-- finally, b/c i worked for the hamlet i figured let me just go down there-- so i did and they let me in the gates b/c i dropped some names of managers i knew worked there from my HWC experience...
i FORCED the BM to show me around and he did but before he did he told me i couldn't get married there... and not just me-- NO one can get married there!! i was in shock-- he explained that the homeowners b/c they think who they are-- are in the process of suing the plainview location and the hamlet for FULL ownership rights, meaning-- they want the 'clubhouse' which doubles as the reception hall ALL to themselves-- no weddings, no parties--only if you LIVE there you can go there. so they said that they had put a complete 'freeze' on all weddings taking place and didn't even know if the ones that were already booked there would take place!!!
but let me tell you-- the place is beautiful, unique, etc etc-- i'm happy with what we chose and in the end it worked out but it was a pretty place- it's a shame though... i think the people that live there will get their way and that will be it
just wanted to fill you in so you weren't wondering what happened there-- but the BM should have called you and ME before I had to go there in person and explained the situation so you didn't keep calling and calling...



THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE UPDATE!!!!
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SeptBride70 Posted: Apr 05, 2006 02:27 PM+
SeptBride70 MEMBER SINCE: 1/06 TOTAL POSTS : 8582 WEDDING DATE: Sep 09, 2007
Posted: Apr 05, 2006 02:27 PM bride-minus.png

Re: Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?


Posted by JennyAl


Posted by STBMrsDaniRella


Posted by JennyAl
Areca:
-Plainview, NY
-DON’T BOOK THIS PLACE!!!!!!
-I fell in love with this place, visited them 3x….2x to see the place w/ and w/o the wedding setup and the 3rd time to show my parents…so I called them so that we can sign the contract….I left Mike the BM NUMEROUS MSGS to please call me, I was practically begging him to take my $$$….but he NEVER ONCE returned any of my phone calls! HOW RUDE!!!!!!! I’m sooo mad at this place!



yep, same thing happened to me. i loved that place too-- i worked for hamlet willow creek for almost two years so i got to know some people at the other hamlet locations and looked at the commack one and windwatch... i heard great things about areca and called and called and CALLED-- finally, b/c i worked for the hamlet i figured let me just go down there-- so i did and they let me in the gates b/c i dropped some names of managers i knew worked there from my HWC experience...
i FORCED the BM to show me around and he did but before he did he told me i couldn't get married there... and not just me-- NO one can get married there!! i was in shock-- he explained that the homeowners b/c they think who they are-- are in the process of suing the plainview location and the hamlet for FULL ownership rights, meaning-- they want the 'clubhouse' which doubles as the reception hall ALL to themselves-- no weddings, no parties--only if you LIVE there you can go there. so they said that they had put a complete 'freeze' on all weddings taking place and didn't even know if the ones that were already booked there would take place!!!
but let me tell you-- the place is beautiful, unique, etc etc-- i'm happy with what we chose and in the end it worked out but it was a pretty place- it's a shame though... i think the people that live there will get their way and that will be it
just wanted to fill you in so you weren't wondering what happened there-- but the BM should have called you and ME before I had to go there in person and explained the situation so you didn't keep calling and calling...



THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE UPDATE!!!!



very welcome
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MrsMichel07 Posted: May 04, 2006 08:21 PM+
MrsMichel07 MEMBER SINCE: 1/05 TOTAL POSTS : 6093 WEDDING DATE: May 12, 2007
Posted: May 04, 2006 08:21 PM bride-minus.png

Re: Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?

Bumping for those who still haven't booked....

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bellaro782 Posted: May 04, 2006 11:20 PM+
bellaro782 MEMBER SINCE: 4/06 TOTAL POSTS : 3051 WEDDING DATE: Sep 29, 2007
Posted: May 04, 2006 11:20 PM bride-minus.png

Re: Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?

I Have to say I went to 20 places in Long Island and the Sand Castle won me over. The prices are great the place is sooooo pretty and you get a free 10 night stay honeymoon at their hotel in Greace SAND CASTLE IS SO WORTH LOOKING AT im getting a Sat Night in Sep. with the works and it was reasonable compared to what these other places were offering I WOULD CHECK OUT THE SAND CASTLE 100% they are sooo Nice as well. plus i get my honeymoon lol ...
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pgonzo Posted: May 05, 2006 12:17 AM+
pgonzo MEMBER SINCE: 12/05 TOTAL POSTS : 465 WEDDING DATE: Jun 08, 2007
Posted: May 05, 2006 12:17 AM bride-minus.png

Re: Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?


Posted by SuzBride


Posted by paezano

i booked @ lands end in sayville for 2007-i went with a sunday because saturday was alittle pricey-$139 (this includes tax & gratuity)lands end to me is not your normal wedding hall-it is quaint, intimate, and most of all the grounds-it is on the water and there are so many options for pics.



YEY - another Land's End bride! I'm a 2006 bride but there is only one other Land's End bride on the 2006 board (and she is NEVER on here)! I can't wait till their next showcase - the one in Feb was SO good!



ooh!! can u give us a heads up when u find out the next showcase??? i missed the one if february.. are they having one this summer???

thanks a bunch!!
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EGreene79 Posted: May 05, 2006 09:28 AM+
EGreene79 MEMBER SINCE: 4/06 TOTAL POSTS : 1085 WEDDING DATE: Sep 29, 2007
Posted: May 05, 2006 09:28 AM bride-minus.png

Re: Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?

I only got pricing for September, October and November and for Saturday night only. The lower prices are either the November prices or the lowest package prices - and many of the lower prices can probably be reduced even further if you drop items from the package. Most places will give you a range if you call. All of these are with tax & tip unless noted otherwise. I didn't visit all of these - I only called most of them. I figured I'd include everywhere I looked, including NJ and CT since some people might have the same situation that I do.

LONG ISLAND
Milleridge - $128 - $154
Willow Creek - $115 - $128
Majestic Gardens - $128-$186
Rock Hill CC - $75 (before tax & tip)
Bellport CC - $128 - $141
Bourne Mansion - $165 - $191 BUT the day after we visited he dropped the rate to $125 (before t&t) if we could guarantee 200
Timberpoint CC - $90 (before t&t)
East Wind - $146-$192
Roslyn Claremont - $103 - $224
Atlantica - $167-$224
Flowerfield - $180 - $231
The Swan Club - $115
North Ritz Club - $170
Carlyle on the Green - $250
Westbury Manor - $147 - $160
Hamlet in Commack - $192
Coindre Hall - $130 - $140
Glen Cove Mansion - $224 - $237

CONNECTICUT
Great River Country Club - I think it was $70 - $150. They offer a wide range of packages
The Candlewood Inn - $137.80 - $160

NEW JERSEY/WESTCHESTER
The Olde Mill Inn - $170
Twin Brooks CC - $80 - $130
The Brownstone - $113 - $145
Basking Ridge CC - $113 - $139
Colonia CC - $75 - $125
Lake Mohawk CC - $186
Old Orchard Manor - $38 - $130
Brooklake CC - $124
Sea Oaks CC - $92 - $136
Knoll CC - $85 - $140
Pennsauken CC - $72
Indian Trail CC - $130 - $145
Atrium Country Club - $80 - 150
Buena Vista Country Club - $55
Crystal Point Yacht Club - $90 - $108
The Newark Club - $85 - $155
Valley Regency - $202
Valleybrook Country Club - $68 - $85
Westmount Country Club - $85
Nanina's In the Park - $202
Crystal Springs Country Club - $186 - 214
Ramsey Golf & Country Club - $101 - 189
The Clubhouse at Patriot Hills - $120 - $132
The Mill at Spring Lake Heights - $129 - $150
Eagle Ridge Golf Club - $145 - $189
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LoveBug1124 Posted: May 05, 2006 09:31 AM+
LoveBug1124 MEMBER SINCE: 4/06 TOTAL POSTS : 933 WEDDING DATE: Jun 23, 2007
Posted: May 05, 2006 09:31 AM bride-minus.png

Re: Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?


Posted by JennyAl

Hi I just wanted to add some of my experiences with the places I’ve visited for our 05/06/07 wedding (Sunday Evening) for 200 guests. Hope it helps, please don’t take any offense to any of my comments:

Roslyn Claremont Hotel:
-Roslyn, NY
-101/pp
-Had a very old and classic feeling in it, the cocktail and reception room are on the lower level, so they have no outside views. If you’re claustrophobic this probably isn’t the best place for you
-Charged extra for valet….coat check
-1 wedding@ a time

Areca:
-Plainview, NY
-DON’T BOOK THIS PLACE!!!!!!
-I fell in love with this place, visited them 3x….2x to see the place w/ and w/o the wedding setup and the 3rd time to show my parents…so I called them so that we can sign the contract….I left Mike the BM NUMEROUS MSGS to please call me, I was practically begging him to take my $$$….but he NEVER ONCE returned any of my phone calls! HOW RUDE!!!!!!! I’m sooo mad at this place!

Bridgeview Yacht Club:
-Island Park, NY
-85/pp
-Waterview
-The room is really a outside tent but it doesn’t feel like one..
-Nice, but wasn’t as contemporary as I’d wanted it to be
-1 wedding@ a time

Woodbury Country Club
-Woodbury, NY
-80/pp
-BEAUTIFUL OUTDOOR garden for pics!!!!!!
-Classic feeling
- 2 weddings @ a time

Jericho Terrace
-Mineola, NY
-99/pp (NO NEGOTIATION, the BM actually told me that!!!)
-VERY limited outdoor pics
-I didn’t like the way the BM pitched me the place, he talked to us like we were just $$$ to him, he memorized and read off his menu selections (like we were sooo impressed) and the place just felt too commercialized….he was rushing everything….didnt like it
-2 weddings @ a time

Chateau La mer:
-Lindenhurst, NY
-72/pp
-waterview
-Possible yacht entrance for bride and groom (weather providing)
-1 wedding @ a time

And our FINAL choice:
Crescent Beach Club:
-Bayville, NY
-95/pp
-On the beach facility
-Great sunset pics!

Feel free to FM me with any comments/questions…..



They didn't call you back at Areca because they no longer do weddings. So sad I know We went to check it out in october and was informed that they no longer cater to the public. I was so bummed about it because it looked beautiful!!!

And OMG $80 for Woodbury CC? What time of year, I wish would could have gotten them within even $30+ of that.
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LoveBug1124 Posted: May 05, 2006 09:42 AM+
LoveBug1124 MEMBER SINCE: 4/06 TOTAL POSTS : 933 WEDDING DATE: Jun 23, 2007
Posted: May 05, 2006 09:42 AM bride-minus.png

Re: Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?


Posted by Danacm80

Hi..I was wondering if anyone received any price quotes for Oheka Castle or the Woodlands?? We're planning for June 2007. Thanks!



Ackk I need to read the dates before posting!!
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DancerBride Posted: May 05, 2006 03:07 PM+
DancerBride MEMBER SINCE: 5/06 TOTAL POSTS : 651 WEDDING DATE: May 20, 2007
Posted: May 05, 2006 03:07 PM bride-minus.png

Re: Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?

Sunday Day Wedding in May

Chateau La Mer $70
North Ritz Club $95
Riviera $70
Westbury Manor $77
Crest Hollow CC $77
Jerich Terrace $75
Chateau Briand $75
Carltun on the Sound $90
Beach Club estate $70
Caffe on the Green $90
Swan Club $80
Watermill $77
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JennyAl Posted: May 06, 2006 05:35 PM+
JennyAl MEMBER SINCE: 3/05 TOTAL POSTS : 2196 WEDDING DATE: May 06, 2007
Posted: May 06, 2006 05:35 PM bride-minus.png

Re: Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?


Posted by LoveBug1124


Posted by JennyAl

Hi I just wanted to add some of my experiences with the places I’ve visited for our 05/06/07 wedding (Sunday Evening) for 200 guests. Hope it helps, please don’t take any offense to any of my comments:

Roslyn Claremont Hotel:
-Roslyn, NY
-101/pp
-Had a very old and classic feeling in it, the cocktail and reception room are on the lower level, so they have no outside views. If you’re claustrophobic this probably isn’t the best place for you
-Charged extra for valet….coat check
-1 wedding@ a time

Areca:
-Plainview, NY
-DON’T BOOK THIS PLACE!!!!!!
-I fell in love with this place, visited them 3x….2x to see the place w/ and w/o the wedding setup and the 3rd time to show my parents…so I called them so that we can sign the contract….I left Mike the BM NUMEROUS MSGS to please call me, I was practically begging him to take my $$$….but he NEVER ONCE returned any of my phone calls! HOW RUDE!!!!!!! I’m sooo mad at this place!

Bridgeview Yacht Club:
-Island Park, NY
-85/pp
-Waterview
-The room is really a outside tent but it doesn’t feel like one..
-Nice, but wasn’t as contemporary as I’d wanted it to be
-1 wedding@ a time

Woodbury Country Club
-Woodbury, NY
-80/pp
-BEAUTIFUL OUTDOOR garden for pics!!!!!!
-Classic feeling
- 2 weddings @ a time

Jericho Terrace
-Mineola, NY
-99/pp (NO NEGOTIATION, the BM actually told me that!!!)
-VERY limited outdoor pics
-I didn’t like the way the BM pitched me the place, he talked to us like we were just $$$ to him, he memorized and read off his menu selections (like we were sooo impressed) and the place just felt too commercialized….he was rushing everything….didnt like it
-2 weddings @ a time

Chateau La mer:
-Lindenhurst, NY
-72/pp
-waterview
-Possible yacht entrance for bride and groom (weather providing)
-1 wedding @ a time

And our FINAL choice:
Crescent Beach Club:
-Bayville, NY
-95/pp
-On the beach facility
-Great sunset pics!

Feel free to FM me with any comments/questions…..



They didn't call you back at Areca because they no longer do weddings. So sad I know We went to check it out in october and was informed that they no longer cater to the public. I was so bummed about it because it looked beautiful!!!

And OMG $80 for Woodbury CC? What time of year, I wish would could have gotten them within even $30+ of that.



i know....someone told me Areca....totally sux taht they didnt return my MANY pheon calls...and trust me it was beautiful!...oh well....but i nowhave Crescent Beach CLub, which is 1000x better then them!

all of the quote were for a sunday in may....
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Mdolph6 Posted: May 06, 2006 06:28 PM+
Mdolph6 MEMBER SINCE: 12/05 TOTAL POSTS : 3135 WEDDING DATE: Feb 16, 2007
Posted: May 06, 2006 06:28 PM bride-minus.png

Re: Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?


Posted by Rina

Thanks Jenny- that was very helpful. I'm going back on Wed. to see Marina Del Rey. When I went yesterday there was too much going on so we decided to go back in the middle of the week. On Thurs. I'm going to Russo's so I'll post the info.





I know this has nothing to do with this post but I went to a wedding at Marina Del rey back in sept and I LOVED it. ITs Beautiful and the view from the room we where in was awesome. If it wasent to far for all my quests that is where we would be going....

But here are some prices I got...
Villa Lombardi 99.95 pp friday night in Feb
Harbor Club $65 pp friday night in Feb
Majestic Gardens $85pp Friday night in Feb
Miller Place inn $95 pp
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DUCKS2001 Posted: May 06, 2006 07:32 PM+
DUCKS2001 MEMBER SINCE: 7/05 TOTAL POSTS : 5784 WEDDING DATE: Jul 07, 2006
Posted: May 06, 2006 07:32 PM bride-minus.png

Re: Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?

SORRY TO BUMP I BOOKED GIROGIOS IN DEC 2004 FOR FRIDAY NIGHT WEDDING I AM PAYING $100PP WITH TAX AND GRUTUITY ITS 126.75
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meliss1019 Posted: May 07, 2006 03:20 PM+
meliss1019 MEMBER SINCE: 2/06 TOTAL POSTS : 307 WEDDING DATE: Sep 07, 2007
Posted: May 07, 2006 03:20 PM bride-minus.png

Re: Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?

Girls who are still looking def. check out sunset harbour, it's located on a marina dock in patchogue. The place is so nice & so are the people who work there. I have not heard one bad thing about the place. The cocktail & recep.rooms look so pretty when they are set up for a wedding. I went to a tasting last week & the food is great, not one complaint from the 6 of us who went, after that I decided to book them.
prices start from $60-70 for the fall of 07 for a fri.nite.
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tonimike Posted: May 08, 2006 03:53 PM+
tonimike MEMBER SINCE: 12/05 TOTAL POSTS : 4482 WEDDING DATE: May 18, 2007
Posted: May 08, 2006 03:53 PM bride-minus.png

Re: Hey Ladies...Let's post reception halls and there prices for 07 as we go on our search?

bumped, someone was looking for this
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